31 Replies Latest reply: Feb 23, 2012 7:19 PM by Gl0balPandemic RSS

You can have balance and variety at the same time! Really!

schmambuman
I just wanted to post this because a lot of people have been saying that nerfing a single gun will lead to every single gun being nerfed, which will somehow make all the guns the exact same. I'm just creating this topic to say to all you that would argue this point that balance is not having each gun doing the same thing. It's having each gun being essentially equal in effectiveness, in one way or another. For example,

Here's a basic example of balance.

Having a gun that has a fast fire rate, but either high recoil, or low damage.

Having a gun with high damage, but either high recoil, low magazine capacity, or a low fire rate.

Having a gun with massive damage (snipers/shotguns) but low fire rates, or for example with snipers idle sway that must be steadied.

Just because all guns are basically equal in terms of killing power does not mean they are all the same.
For example, I like guns with high fire rates, which is why I lovingly named my Vector "the bullet hose"
Some people like high damage guns.
Some people like guns with high mag capacity.
Some people like guns with good mobility and aimspeeds.
Some people like guns with high accuracy.
Some people like guns with good iron sights.



Does anyone see what I am trying to say with this? Just because there are no OP guns does not mean every gun is the exact same.

Also, to the common argument that, "Well then there is no reason to level up!"
Leveling up is meant to unlock more diverse weapons, not for everyone who levels up to have guns that are better in every way compared to the lower leveled ones.
Also, right now arguably the best guns in the game are the FAMAS, the 74u, and the AUG. Don't know about the AUG, but the FAMAS is unlocked at 14, and the 74 at like 20.
That high enough for you?
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    DropDragon
    +9001

    And as an example, WAW-the MP40=Perfect weapon balance and variety
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    schmambuman

    DropDragon wrote:

     

    +9001

    And as an example, WAW-the MP40=Perfect weapon balance and variety



    Thanks, I've never had over 9000 before.
    And yeah, the MP40 was kinda what I was going for. Nerfing that gun would have no effect on the variety of the other guns at all.
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    schmambuman
    BUMP!
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    MovinSoSlow18

    schmambuman wrote:

     

    DropDragon wrote:

     

    +9001

    And as an example, WAW-the MP40=Perfect weapon balance and variety



    Thanks, I've never had over 9000 before.
    And yeah, the MP40 was kinda what I was going for. Nerfing that gun would have no effect on the variety of the other guns at all.




    Are you kidding me...Did you even play world at war?
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    schmambuman

    MovinSoSlow18 wrote:

     

    schmambuman wrote:

     

    DropDragon wrote:

     

    +9001

    And as an example, WAW-the MP40=Perfect weapon balance and variety



    Thanks, I've never had over 9000 before.
    And yeah, the MP40 was kinda what I was going for. Nerfing that gun would have no effect on the variety of the other guns at all.




    Are you kidding me...Did you even play world at war?



    Yeah. Are you saying that the MP40 was essential to the balance of WAW and that nerfing it would create a game paradox where time has no meaning and all guns are suddenly the same?
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!

    DropDragon wrote:

     

    +9001


    It's over nine thousand!
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    schmambuman

    ficko88 wrote:

     

    DropDragon wrote:

     

    +9001


    It's over nine thousand!


    Nappa! Do as I say!
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    schmambuman
    One more bump for today...
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    I like Commando.
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    WhiteHawk0117
    Lol at the Bumps.

    What the Op came up with is the more basic way of doing weapons.  CoD4 does this very well.

    Also, I would like to extend this to different types of weapons, to show that weapons are different by more then just name.

    Assault Rifles = All Range weapons with the main criteria given by the OP
    SMGs = Fast ROF, Low Range
    LMG = Large Ammo Count, Slow Reload
    Snipers = High Damage, Slow ROF, Low Mags, Long Range (Mostly)
    Shotguns = High Damage, Low Range, Moderate Reload, Small Ammo Capactity
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    ball ache2008
    I agree entirely. What you seem to find however is even if this is perfectly incorporated into the game the vast majority of the community will pick one gun and leave the others. I do not think the problem currently lies in the balancing aspects but more in the choices continously made by the players. Nobody uses the variety available.
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    IrishK
    The balance in this game is atrocious - there is no variety. Most weapons use the same damage (35/40 to 30/25 for assault rifles), rate of fire (937.5 and 750) and recoil values - the only difference being reload times and other trivial details. All weapon categories have one that is a clear winner over every other.

    You can have balanced weapons and variety between them. There are LOTS of ways to do this. So don't be fooled for one second thinking that you cannot have good balance and variety.


    http://denkirson.xanga.com/735016527/black-ops/


    The MAC-11, PM63, Spectre and Kiparis are almost IDENTICAL in EVERY way. You call that balance? C'mon, people...
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    IADaewooLanosI
    ak47 ftw
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    IrishK

    IADaewooLanosI wrote:

     

    ak47 ftw



    The Colt Commando is almost the same gun statistically, except it is better.  

    Same damage, recoil, rate of fire, bullet spread, recenter time...
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    WhiteHawk0117

    IrishK wrote:

     

    The balance in this game is atrocious - there is no variety. Most weapons use the same damage (35/40 to 30/25 for assault rifles), rate of fire (937.5 and 750) and recoil values - the only difference being reload times and other trivial details. All weapon categories have one that is a winner over every other.

    You can have balanced weapons and variety between them. There are LOTS of ways to do this. So don't be fooled for one second thinking that you cannot have good balance and variety.


    http://denkirson.xanga.com/735016527/black-ops/


    The MAC-11, PM63, Spectre and Kiparis are almost IDENTICAL in EVERY way. You call that balance? C'mon, people...



    Another problem that I have noticed, not just the lack of variety, is that even if people do use High Recoil weapons (AK74u RF, MPL RF, Stioner 63, etc), then people just increase their sensitivity, kinda makes recoil pointless, doesn't it?
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!

    IrishK wrote:

     

    IADaewooLanosI wrote:

     

    ak47 ftw



    The Colt Commando is almost the same gun statistically, except it is better.  

    Same damage, recoil, rate of fire, bullet spread, recenter time...


    I like the Commando!
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    IrishK
    WhiteHawk, I cannot comment on that from a PC player's perspective. Maybe it is the sticky aim/aim assist that helps counter recoil deviations. I can't be sure.

    It's nice to see that there are some people around here who know what's going on. Unfortunately, many people repeat the "Most balanced CoD ever" statement because they heard someone else say it (namely people like Hutch, who has a far-reaching influence). 
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    WhiteHawk0117

    IrishK wrote:

     

    WhiteHawk, I cannot comment on that from a PC player's perspective. Maybe it is the sticky aim/aim assist that helps counter recoil deviations. I can't be sure.



    I may not beable to say anything about the PC version, but the PS3 and 100% the 360 version have this issue.

    IrishK wrote:

     

    It's nice to see that there are some people around here who know what's going on. Unfortunately, many people repeat the "Most balanced CoD ever" statement because they heard someone else say it (namely people like Hutch, who has a far-reaching influence). 



    In terms of perks, it is (which is not saying much because of the wonders of Ghost, SoH, and Hacker), but the weapons are all over the place.
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    schmambuman

    IrishK wrote:

     

    The balance in this game is atrocious - there is no variety. Most weapons use the same damage (35/40 to 30/25 for assault rifles), rate of fire (937.5 and 750) and recoil values - the only difference being reload times and other trivial details. All weapon categories have one that is a clear winner over every other.

    You can have balanced weapons and variety between them. There are LOTS of ways to do this. So don't be fooled for one second thinking that you cannot have good balance and variety.


    http://denkirson.xanga.com/735016527/black-ops/


    The MAC-11, PM63, Spectre and Kiparis are almost IDENTICAL in EVERY way. You call that balance? C'mon, people...



    Are you talking about me? I'm arguing for balance and variety at the same time.
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    schmambuman

    ball ache2008 wrote:

     

    I agree entirely. What you seem to find however is even if this is perfectly incorporated into the game the vast majority of the community will pick one gun and leave the others. I do not think the problem currently lies in the balancing aspects but more in the choices continously made by the players. Nobody uses the variety available.



    It's because everyone is attracted to the guns with the higher power. No one uses guns with high fire rates. Usually guns with high damages are the best choices for most scenarios, as long as they are fully auto. Besides, right now most guns are just copies of one another, and Treyarch only put 2 fire rates into the game excluding attachments and the M60.
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    schmambuman

    WhiteHawk0117 wrote:

     

    Lol at the Bumps.

    What the Op came up with is the more basic way of doing weapons.  CoD4 does this very well.

    Also, I would like to extend this to different types of weapons, to show that weapons are different by more then just name.

    Assault Rifles = All Range weapons with the main criteria given by the OP
    SMGs = Fast ROF, Low Range
    LMG = Large Ammo Count, Slow Reload
    Snipers = High Damage, Slow ROF, Low Mags, Long Range (Mostly)
    Shotguns = High Damage, Low Range, Moderate Reload, Small Ammo Capactity



    This is true, although all the weapons do not really have to follow these suits. The AUG H-BAR didn't really follow suit with all the other LMGs, and it still felt like an LMG to me. Besides, all SMGs don't really need a fast fire rate, they just need high damage output up close.
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    schmambuman

    WhiteHawk0117 wrote:

     

    IrishK wrote:

     

    The balance in this game is atrocious - there is no variety. Most weapons use the same damage (35/40 to 30/25 for assault rifles), rate of fire (937.5 and 750) and recoil values - the only difference being reload times and other trivial details. All weapon categories have one that is a winner over every other.

    You can have balanced weapons and variety between them. There are LOTS of ways to do this. So don't be fooled for one second thinking that you cannot have good balance and variety.


    http://denkirson.xanga.com/735016527/black-ops/


    The MAC-11, PM63, Spectre and Kiparis are almost IDENTICAL in EVERY way. You call that balance? C'mon, people...



    Another problem that I have noticed, not just the lack of variety, is that even if people do use High Recoil weapons (AK74u RF, MPL RF, Stioner 63, etc), then people just increase their sensitivity, kinda makes recoil pointless, doesn't it?



    At least controlling the recoil takes a little bit of skill, plus the recoil actually makes long shots quite difficult. And yeah, guns do not need to be extremely similar in order to be balanced.

    PS: Think that I can get this thread to the point where half the posts are by yours truly? We shall see... 
  • Re: Balance =/= (Does not equal) Lack of variety!
    schmambuman
    Anyone else have any opinions or counterarguments as to how balance is not possible without making all weapons the exact same? Because people seem to have the idea that if there isn't a god gun, somehow all other guns are the same.
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    anoreo

    schmambuman wrote:

     

    DropDragon wrote:

     

    +9001

    And as an example, WAW-the MP40=Perfect weapon balance and variety



    Thanks, I've never had over 9000 before.
    And yeah, the MP40 was kinda what I was going for. Nerfing that gun would have no effect on the variety of the other guns at all.




    Yeah, it would affect it. Not that many people want low RoF+high damaged guns. If the MP40 was balanced, people wouldn't use it.
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    schmambuman

    An Oreo wrote:

     

    schmambuman wrote:

     

    DropDragon wrote:

     

    +9001

    And as an example, WAW-the MP40=Perfect weapon balance and variety



    Thanks, I've never had over 9000 before.
    And yeah, the MP40 was kinda what I was going for. Nerfing that gun would have no effect on the variety of the other guns at all.




    Yeah, it would affect it. Not that many people want low RoF+high damaged guns. If the MP40 was balanced, people wouldn't use it.



    I'm not sure what you mean. Most people gravitate towards the high damage guns anyways, if the MP40 was balanced, and still had high damage, but perhaps had its hipfire nerfed or something, how would that affect every single other gun in the game? Besides, wouldn't that be better?
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    anoreo

    schmambuman wrote:

     



    And as an example, WAW-the MP40=Perfect weapon balance and variety



    Thanks, I've never had over 9000 before.
    And yeah, the MP40 was kinda what I was going for. Nerfing that gun would have no effect on the variety of the other guns at all.[/quote]


    Yeah, it would affect it. Not that many people want low RoF+high damaged guns. If the MP40 was balanced, people wouldn't use it.[/quote]

    I'm not sure what you mean. Most people gravitate towards the high damage guns anyways, if the MP40 was balanced, and still had high damage, but perhaps had its hipfire nerfed or something, how would that affect every single other gun in the game? Besides, wouldn't that be better?[/quote]


    No matter the weapon, as long as it is overpowered, people will use it for that reason alone. As a result, other great weapons such as the DP28 and the BAR get ignored. Not to mention, the DP28 and BAR are both low RoF, high damaged weapons. Nobody wants a balanced MG, people want the overpowered SMG. This, in turn, caused people to get turned off. Getting killed many times with the same gun made the game boring. Go onto MW2, the weapons are slightly less unbalanced, but many more weapons are considered "OP", but many guns were affected by this, allowing you to pick a weapon. Nothing beat M16 noobs with an ACR, and it was always fun destroying UMP rushers with an M21. Now that people weren't restricted to one or 2 overpowered weapons, it allowed for more variety and making the game more fun.

    The day I got killed by the DP28 for the first time, I almost fainted.
  • Re: Balance =/= Lack of variety!
    schmambuman

    An Oreo wrote:

     

    schmambuman wrote:

     



    And as an example, WAW-the MP40=Perfect weapon balance and variety



    Thanks, I've never had over 9000 before.
    And yeah, the MP40 was kinda what I was going for. Nerfing that gun would have no effect on the variety of the other guns at all.




    Yeah, it would affect it. Not that many people want low RoF+high damaged guns. If the MP40 was balanced, people wouldn't use it.[/quote]

    I'm not sure what you mean. Most people gravitate towards the high damage guns anyways, if the MP40 was balanced, and still had high damage, but perhaps had its hipfire nerfed or something, how would that affect every single other gun in the game? Besides, wouldn't that be better?[/quote]


    No matter the weapon, as long as it is overpowered, people will use it for that reason alone. As a result, other great weapons such as the DP28 and the BAR get ignored. Not to mention, the DP28 and BAR are both low RoF, high damaged weapons. Nobody wants a balanced MG, people want the overpowered SMG. This, in turn, caused people to get turned off. Getting killed many times with the same gun made the game boring. Go onto MW2, the weapons are slightly less unbalanced, but many more weapons are considered "OP", but many guns were affected by this, allowing you to pick a weapon. Nothing beat M16 noobs with an ACR, and it was always fun destroying UMP rushers with an M21. Now that people weren't restricted to one or 2 overpowered weapons, it allowed for more variety and making the game more fun.

    The day I got killed by the DP28 for the first time, I almost fainted.[/quote]

    I think you are essentially saying the same thing I am though, that it would indeed be better if the OP guns were brought down. After all, if every single gun is OP, isn't that what balance is? I would rather there be a bunch of OP weapons, and only a few UP ones, than a single OP gun, and a bunch of UP ones. Is this what you're trying to say?
  • Re: You can have balance and variety at the same time! Really!
    MatadorRED
    I think if they change the classes, it's like programming a whole new game, you know what I mean? lol

    They messed up on SMGs. If they made them better, you would see people use SMGs as frequently as AR, like in Modern Warfare 2.
    The shotguns are balanced, but the maps don't provide an environment suitable for people rushing with a shotty.
    The debate on snipers speaks for itself.
    LMGs are good, I can't complain. Except for the useless DUAL MAG attachment on RPK that actually doesn't increase ammo.

    There are so many new things they added, like Flamethrower, Decoy, Nova Gas, but they just didn't make it worthwhile to use. I know good players use Nova Gas for Domination, but good players run Tactical Mask on Dom too.
  • Re: You can have balance and variety at the same time! Really!
    schmambuman

    MatadorRED wrote:

     

    I think if they change the classes, it's like programming a whole new game, you know what I mean? lol

    They messed up on SMGs. If they made them better, you would see people use SMGs as frequently as AR, like in Modern Warfare 2.
    The shotguns are balanced, but the maps don't provide an environment suitable for people rushing with a shotty.
    The debate on snipers speaks for itself.
    LMGs are good, I can't complain. Except for the useless DUAL MAG attachment on RPK that actually doesn't increase ammo.

    There are so many new things they added, like Flamethrower, Decoy, Nova Gas, but they just didn't make it worthwhile to use. I know good players use Nova Gas for Domination, but good players run Tactical Mask on Dom too.



    I know what you mean, but I saw a lot more variety in MW2 too. I saw a bunch of people using snipers, LMGs, SMGs, Semi auto ARs, Burst fire ARs, I saw some really good players even with guns like the F2000. In Black ops, it just seems like the only guns are the FAMAS and 74u, sometimes I see a stoner or two, but it's rather dissapointing, as there are so many other guns to use. Just look at your combat record. I'm not complaining that the weapons can't be used, that's just not true, I've gotten some really good gameplay with the Stakeout, in fact, my first flawless game with 40 kills was with the stakeout on jungle. I think there isn't enough distinction between different guns. Mainly the fact that there are only 2 fire rates, combined with the massive amount of similarities between certain guns, it's quite infuriating.
  • Re: You can have balance and variety at the same time! Really!
    schmambuman
    One more bump before I hang this thread up by the gallows...
  • Re: You can have balance and variety at the same time! Really!

    Originality will be the death of me, but all I want to do is use an under used gun without getting raped 24/7.