32 Replies Latest reply: Dec 17, 2011 8:56 PM by dexter1992 RSS

Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?

playerone2

(maximum transmission unit.)

Has anybody else noticed this? or encountered it?

Ever since people started changing their mtu or QoS or whatever in their router settings to add a delay to their connections. the lag seems to have gotten worse.

One person in the room with a delayed connection gets all the kills and everybody else is lagging and backing out.

I have not done this because my router doesnt allow me to, so i really notice it. Im not going to spend another 70 on a router just so i can play this game,

 

All the "good" players on youtube do this and so do thousand of others. Ive played with people who played a game without it and a game with it in the next. and when its delayed you cant barely shoot them. they barely come around the corner, but in the killcam they are completely behined you. like the worst/best lag ever.

 

UPDATE-please read the 4th post.

  • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?
    iif0xh0undii

    Those that are intentionally adding "lag" to their setup are subject to reprimand from the console manufacturers.

     

    MTU settings and QOS are normally altered to optimize the conditions of one's network.

     

    QOS: You'd use this if you have multiple electronics on your router that you can't turn off. Such as a work computer or your roommates'. Most people are trying to prioritize their connection toward their console or PC in this case.

     

    MTU: Finding the proper size is crucial in some cases. ISPs and network setups can fluctuate so there isn't a proper standard for this. A default of 1500 exists, but only because this is the maximum allowed for Ethernet. What you're trying to stop when alerting this is the possibility of corruption in packets. Said corruption would create a need for those to be resent which would create lag.

     

    Now if the host is bad, then I can see why many people would be lagging and performing subpar. That isn't indicative though that they've changed their settings intentionally. They could be oblivious or the ISP could just be that bad. If someone joins that has a QOS or MTU optimization, the game won't slow down.

    • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?
      IEliteWalker

      Alot of people are "lagging" to take advantage of the Lag Compensation.

    • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?
      gallp13

      FOX,

       

      Introduction

       

      First and foremost the Community needs to understand and accept that multiplay FPS games lag. The issue at hand is simply to minimise lag as far as possible and to spread the pain equitably. Many in the Community understand that the devs are working on this matter. Their anger, vitrol and at the extreme, action to induce lag and avoid host, are a function of high consumer expectations and impatience. These are both exacerbated by a lack of regular communication as to the work underway to minimise and spread lag. For the record, this gamer is confident matters are and will be addressed as history shows this is the case and commercial reality assures this will be so. I will add this gamer is getting on in years and does not have as higher need for immediate gratification that he did when he was much younger. Such is life as Ned Kelly once said.

       

      Commentary

       

      The reprimand, if it comes, is surely inconsequential. Perhaps you have examples of reprimands or bans but I am not seeing many as I suspect this behaviour can be difficult to police.

       

      Many Community members suspect induced lag is on the rise. Whether this is true or not is not the issue, the mere perception that folks are inducing lag is enough to encourage others to do the same. An escalation pattern is likely to emerge and there is some evidence that this may have already started. The trouble with escalation is it starts out slow and accelerates over time. I suspect this dymanic is well understood in your office (cybernetics and game theory 101) hence your post reminding folks not to induce lag. This must be of great concern as a large population inducing lag creates an environment where it may be difficult for devs to improve lag comp algorithms to minimise and spread lag pain.

       

      While it is important to remind the Community of the rules and their obligation, it is also critical to address the root cause of their behavious being the widely held perception that the devs know of the issues but may not be actively addressing same. Ergo people take matters into their own hands and induce lag in the hope of getting a reasonable game.

       

      Recommendation.

       

      402 or you provide a fortnightly dot point update on issues devs are working on, anticipated time line for fix and whether they are on track. This report would comprise 4-5 dot points covering the issues of most significance to the Community at the time. Todays report , for example would have lag comp and spawn points as items 1 and 2.

       

      This information is readily available from the devs. It takes 402 a phone call to chase it up. It takes 5 min to tweet and put up a forum link to same. So this recommendation is unlikley to be objectionable from a time or availability of information perspective. It is also quite clear,  based on a thorough review of your posts, that you likely agree with this recommendation and support its implemented. This being the case, I suspect any reluctance to adopt this suggestion would come down to Corporate Policy on Community Engagement Processes and Information that can be released. If this is the case so be it.

       

      Conclusion

       

      As an experience Forum Manager I know you understand much of crowd and group dynamics. It is your work after all. Therefore, I know you understand that if you want to stop vigilantes you make sure the police are visible and are constantly talking to the community explaining what they are doing to address community concerns.

       

      I am confident you will take this matter foward. So as our Forum Moderator and Advocate, my thanks in advance of your efforts. If there is any information or support you need to to get this recommendation over the line just yell. You have 30,000,000 people out here who can and a keen are keen to lend a hand.

       

      Yours in CoD

      • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?

        gallp13 wrote:

         

        For the record, this gamer is confident matters are and will be addressed as history shows this is the case and commercial reality assures this will be so.

        Perhaps you are forgetting of a game called Modern Warfare 2. In particular IW acknowledged that the infinite noob tubes due to one man army was a problem. They even said they were testing different fixes for it.

         

        Regardless of the reason MW2 stopped being supported it clearly demonstrates how their history does not show a stellar track record of fixing problems with their product.

  • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?
    vims1990

    Yes, I admit I've lowered my MTU to 1364 & set a QOS setting for my XBOX 360.

     

    But I don't think I'm adding lag to my connection considering I do get host alot & we all know that host in MW3 is a death sentence.

     

    Those two settings have improved my host connection but not by much, I still get insta-killed more often as host whilst I shoot pea-bullets in an enemy player & I die alot around corners.

    • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?

      vims1990 wrote:

       

      Yes, I admit I've lowered my MTU to 1364 & set a QOS setting for my XBOX 360.

       

      But I don't think I'm adding lag to my connection considering I do get host alot & we all know that host in MW3 is a death sentence.

       

      Those two settings have improved my host connection but not by much, I still get insta-killed more often as host whilst I shoot pea-bullets in an enemy player & I die alot around corners.

      yeah was gonna say... lol

       

      QoS and MTU settings are in no way hurting you or anyone else... like fox said above... QoS is for prioritizing traffic for multiple devices.. and MTU minimum for xbox live is set by MS.

       

      the stuff YOU are talking about is when people use other methods... lag switch, downloading torrents to saturate their line etc... these are shady methods by people trying to get an advantage...

       

      qos and mtu settings are being talked about and used on here by people trying to get the game running better.. optimizing so to speak

      • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?

        Ferguson00, how about the shady part being that the "lag comp" is even a part of the game to begin with. It sounds like to me if you have a better internet connection in a game that is played on the internet, that should relate to some kind of advantage if not put you on equal ground with anyone else. Why is it that there is a need to keep every shlub out there who has a junk internet connection even on the same level with me who pays extra to have a decent connection and dedicates more of that connection to the support of my gameplay. I think that it is because in order to apease the masses who have junk internet because their parents feel that the dish network works just fine for them and little johnny.Game developers don't want to miss out on all of those millions of dollars lost if those people gave up on the game because they were always getting owned. So game developers try to find a way to "even" the playing ground and guess what they messed it up big time.

        • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?
          trialstardragon

          Simple, just because you pay for a higher internet does not entitle you to have a better game than anyone else. And all fps games online have lag comp and always have. Just it was never known much about or spoken about before.

           

          The problem is not just in the lag comp and how it works but in how host selection does not always chose the best host for the match, when then causes lag comp to kick in to try and equalize the match as best as it can; but sometimes it can not because of various factors that it does not have control over.

        • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?

          papawoodee wrote:

           

          Ferguson00, how about the shady part being that the "lag comp" is even a part of the game to begin with. It sounds like to me if you have a better internet connection in a game that is played on the internet, that should relate to some kind of advantage if not put you on equal ground with anyone else. Why is it that there is a need to keep every shlub out there who has a junk internet connection even on the same level with me who pays extra to have a decent connection and dedicates more of that connection to the support of my gameplay. I think that it is because in order to apease the masses who have junk internet because their parents feel that the dish network works just fine for them and little johnny.Game developers don't want to miss out on all of those millions of dollars lost if those people gave up on the game because they were always getting owned. So game developers try to find a way to "even" the playing ground and guess what they messed it up big time.

          wasnt arguing the system is flawed.. just that the method guys like me have been trying are not at the expense of others..

           

          to the other guy asking about the 1400 MTU i posted awhile back... it seemed to work GREAT! then once the .13 hotfix went out it all went to hell..

           

          i havent even touched this game in weeks.... might try again today, see if TU7 did anything

      • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?
        VanillaFlava

        Hey Turd, if I remember right, you lowered your MTU to 1400? Is that still working for you? I tried dropping mine to 1400 and didn't get any noticable difference. I'm thinking o going down to 1364, but I'm sure it won't make a difference. It sucks too, because the more we try to optimize our own connections, it seems like we are putting ourselves at even more of a disadvantage. I think the whole "inducing" lag to one's own connection is getting kind of widespread at this point. I don't want to go down that road, nor will I. But something needs to be done to the code, so if people are doing this to exploit the game it can be determined and their connection should suffer, not be buffed.

  • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?

    The fact of the matter is every patch that comes out people keep dumbing there connection accordingly. Pretty soon dial up is going to make a come back. I never changed mine due to the fact is I feel that it is the same as using a lag switch or 3rd party software to pull host even though you didn't have the best connection. If everyone put there settings back to normal all the problems might actually go away but why would they wanna play fair when you don't have to. Blops worked fine until people figured this strategy out then lag went to **** and this game suffered from it.

  • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?
    evm1

    I tested the lag compensation theory with two different internet connections.  What I found was that having a better connection was bettter for the game experience.  With the slow garbage connection my accuracy dropped, i got tons of hit markers and terrible game play.  Trying to use the lag comp to your advantage will only yield placebo like results. 

     

    Like I said, I switched back to my better connection.

    • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?
      solcenva

      The problem with BOPS and MW3 'lag' resulted in those with a legit issue to find their own fix (proven or otherwise) to the problem.
      But of course others will use these 'fixes' to their own advantage. I suffered from constant 1-1 combat lag, so tried "fixing it". Now bops and mw3 play a lot better, but MW2 is aweful. So I have a wired and a wireless configuration.

       

      When online games are released which work as advertised we may see an end to lag switches and other 'end-user' fixes.

    • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?
      avengedyesterday

      evm1 wrote:

       

      I tested the lag compensation theory with two different internet connections.  What I found was that having a better connection was bettter for the game experience.  With the slow garbage connection my accuracy dropped, i got tons of hit markers and terrible game play.  Trying to use the lag comp to your advantage will only yield placebo like results. 

       

      Like I said, I switched back to my better connection.

      You know if someone said it on the internet it must be true, atleast that is the theory.

       

      If you give yourself a delayed connection, this would only work to your advantage if you were host. Otherwise you are just giving youself more lag. 'thousands and thousands of people doing this' is a little much, it's more like >2% of players and thats being modest.

  • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?

    Each person can optimize their MTU in different ways.  There is a video guide on how to optimize it for anyone.  MTU is associated with packet loss.  The MTU setting that gives you 0% packet loss is the optimal one for you.  Resetting your MTU doesn't just help you with your connection to MW3.  Just thought I'd clarify that.  If I find the video guide I will post it.  Just know that putting it at 1400 might not be the best benefit to your situation.  In mine, it was spot on.  Before the update yesterday, I didn't notice much of a difference.  After the update, I don't know if it was just me and everyone on my friends list, but I found the game running smoother and a considerably less amount of lag compensation.  I know this isn't just because I changed my MTU, because no one else on my friends list changed theirs.  They don't even know about it, yet they agree after the update the game runs better.  It still needs work, but the update improved gameplay from my point of view.

    • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?
      playerone2

      theres write up on it and why it adds latency to your connection. I cant remember exactly, something like when your mtu is low it breaks it apart and compresses the data to let it through faster without having packet loss. If i find what i was reading about it i will post it. im sure someone on here knows.

       

      You know, you can learn more on google than you can in school these days. (especially in my state)

       

      It hurts much more than just the host. I know it works because ive played with people that say they are doing it.


      There are alot of things that are debatable for punishment like getting banned or suspended. But i cant say this is one of them. Its no worse than playing off you cell phones wi-fi tether app. even with 4g and 5mb dl you still have a ridiculous ping. Only difference is when you do this you are aware your doing it.

       

      After playing a couple hours after the last update. i feel like the only thing that changed is the amount of delay as host. probably to reduce the amount of host migration people are complaining about. cant say i didnt add to the problem.

       

      I started i new account and had a 5.0 kd in my first game, immediately followed by one of the worst games iveever had in the same lobby to boot. so im pretty sure not a lot has changed as far as the lag comp goes.

       

      If they are going to compromise my gameplay to make the game more enjoyable for less experienced players, they might as well call that exploiting or modding. honestly i see nothing wrong with modifying your connection to make up for the referees making bad calls to let the other team win.

       

      If they just gave the lag comp a fair medium we wouldnt have this problem. it can delay me to a certain extent. but if your connection below that point the people with bad pings should get penalized. im sure they come into the game expecting it anyways.

       

      Oh and whats 2% of 20 or 30 million? thounsands and thousands. hundreds of them to be exact. i meen c'mon your computer has a calculator on it.

  • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?
    mjw3786

    "downloading torrents" to saturate your connection?

     

    this is no different than someone with a better than consumer grade router setting a bandwidth cap on a local IP or MAC address / device.

     

    if i choose to use 10/20/30/80 or 90 percent of my bandwidth for streaming video, hosting a midget p0rn site or folding@home, it's nobodies business but mine.

     

    if they have an issue with people and their available bandwidth, let them make that a minimum requirement or segregate folks in to lobbies by their latency. either works and in the meantime i'll continue to enjoy my MUCH better than previously-lag-comped-to-crap mw3 experience

  • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?
    maccabi

    easiest way to faff with your MTU and have a handy reference guide all about it is looking no further than the elagaphant thread

     

    http://www.callofduty.com/thread/1849?start=0&tstart=0#mtu

     

     

    and yes that was a blatant plug but the thread was put up to stop these sorts of factually incorrect chicken little topics to start with

    • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?

      Factually incorrect chicken little topics...lol.

       

      Anyway, maccabie do you know why xbox has a set limit of 1364?

       

      For instance I set my router to 1024, and ps3 to automatic and I had really smooth gaming. I will try 1364.

       

      I know PS3 can go as low as 576, tried that and had no issues.

      • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?

        1364 seems to be preety stable for me.  I don't know, when you start getting into the specifics of packets things are almost guessing.

        • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?

          Anyway, what I was getting at is...that having a lower MTU will be better than the opposed ISP standard, because you don't want you connection to bottleneck. With a bigger packet comes bigger problems. Re-transmitting large packets will cause lag.

           

          So I would advice to go as low as you can without drastically affecting your throughput.

          • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?

            dexter1992 wrote:

             

            Anyway, what I was getting at is...that having a lower MTU will be better than the opposed ISP standard, because you don't want you connection to bottleneck. With a bigger packet comes bigger problems. Re-transmitting large packets will cause lag.

             

            So I would advice to go as low as you can without drastically affecting your throughput.

            its a slippery slope... large packets are how we all manage to play online games together... if packet loss becomes a problem, then yeah lowering it a bit will certainly help..

             

            but go too far and the game could become completely unplayable... they set network minimums for a reason, and design games around those limitations..

             

            think of it this way... you have a mountain of bricks that you need to move...

             

            carrying a ton of them at once will obviously get the job done quicker, if you can manage to not drop any (what a great analogy huh!? lol)

             

            or you could carry only 2-3 at a time... nice and easy on you and you wont drop any... but it'll take forever!!

             

            the key is finding the optimal balance... go too far either way and the results will be about the same..

      • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?
        maccabi

        dexter1992 wrote:

         

        Factually incorrect chicken little topics...lol.

         

        Anyway, maccabie do you know why xbox has a set limit of 1364?

         

        For instance I set my router to 1024, and ps3 to automatic and I had really smooth gaming. I will try 1364.

         

        I know PS3 can go as low as 576, tried that and had no issues.

        basically so there is a min that devs know not to go below that when designing games or applications for xbl as xbl is design to run from 1364 to 1500. It relates to the min bandwidth requirements for xbl too

  • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?

    The reprimand?

     

    If I stay within a set of parameters that xbox obviously made their console to run on, i.e. 1500 to 1364 setting on MTU or any other setting that I go into MY router that is on MY network, then why would I be reprimanded for adding lag or tweaking QoS and MTU?

     

    I'm not doing it on XBOX console or any of their LICENSED accessories etc. that I agreed to in the TOS. Now if XBOX pays for my internet, my router thus my network then I could see where the reprimand would come in.

     

    Where the problem lies is, we all pay a lot of money for subscription, consoles, accessories and games. I expect some lag and even some bugs. But MW3? Wow. A disclaimer here. I suck at this game. Having said that when I come to a one on one encounter I will maybe win on an average 2 out of the 10 encounters. I just wanted a product that would bring me closer to the 50/50 mark in those encounters.

     

    I have learned a lot and it only bolstered my belief that IW, Activision, Sledgehammer and anyone else I'm missing was not as concerned about the consumer and the product as they should have been. They made record profits with this game and everything that goes with it.

     

    As an older adult I realize that this is just a game and while there are two ends of the spectrum of realistic and unrealistic, I do wish they would bring it more towards the middle.

     

    I will continue to play it as everyone else will and we will all continue to *****. The truth is before any effective change (key word effective) the consumer may have to quit buying the product and that is not going to happen.

     

    Quite the conundrum

    • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?

      What I want to know is what packet size PSN uses. What's weird is if I set my MTU in my router to say 1300, and then set it to 1300 on the PS3. I get a packets can not be fragmented error and online gaming won't work but I can still sigh in. Only when I set the value to 1500 on the PS3 is when I can play online.

       

      If I could figure out exactly what packet size MW3 uses than I could tune things accordingly. The only way I could test it would be to keep going down from 1500 to when I can't get into a match. That would tell me what size packet is needed.

      • Re: Lag getting worse with everybody changing their MTU settings?

        maccabi I did the testing on MW3/PSN. The game was fully functional at a minimum MTU of 1308 bytes. This was set in my router and manually on my PS3 to ensure no fragmenting. Anything below 1308 bytes, and the game will get stuck at "Setting up players".

         

        So I am not sure if this is the minimum set by PSN, or by MW3. Will 1308 work on all games or just MW3? I played MW3 using 1308 and it was very very solid., better than 1500 for sure. My ISP requires me to have an MTU of 1500, but the value did not seem to work best for me. Other games may not function right on 1308, if a game is sending more than 1308 bytes in a single data unit, than having 1308 set in router/ps3 will not work 100% with that game.

         

        I wonder if Microsoft put 1364 as a fail safe, as no games will not send more than that.

         

        What would I would like to know is if having 1500 in the router, and 1308 in the PS3 has any difference compared to 1308 in router and 1500 set on PS3?

         

        Anyway it appears MW3 works at a minimum of 1308. This in theory is the value that will provide a better connection than 1500. 1500 will provide better throughput, but throughput is not needed in gaming, latency is. Since a smaller MTU decrease latecny by each hop, thus you will have better quality in hit detection. 1308 is the best value than on MW3/PS3 until I find an issue with it.

         

        So if anyone wants the best possible connection with MW3 then setting an MTU to 1308 bytes will do just that and decrease your latecny. Think of it as a little tweak.