38 Replies Latest reply: Dec 21, 2011 11:43 AM by platinumb RSS

Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.

Yup. If you show stats to show balance you are a idiot. The only TRUE way is base it upon a variable and how the gun sounds. So, to all the idiots that use stats, give up since my way is the only way that balance is based on. And yes, a gun with a

 

20,000 clip

 

0 recoil

 

1SK

 

Splash damage

 

0 sway

 

10,000 RPM

 

is balanced because you have to aim and it sounds like a pea-shooter.

  • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
    ghosthound

    Sarcasm?

     

    How amusing...

  • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
    ghosthound

    Sarcasm?

     

    How amusing...

  • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
    atiredoldguy

    No ..... sorry . But you are all wrong. Stats are the only "true" measure of balance.

     

    How a weapon actually performs in a battle has no importance.

     

    The fact that I've gotten the perfectionist challenge with a sniper rifle with a 70/50 damage on one single enemy without killing him means absolutely nothing. I suppose it was just in my imagination that the guy walked away after confirmed minimum damage of 500 dealt to him. According to stats, he was dead. It doesnt matter if I got  kill credit, or if he could have killed me ....... its the numbers on papare that count.

  • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.

    I looked at DenKirson stats before even getting the game and I could tell the Type 95 was overpowered and the PM-9 blew.

    • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
      mischaelite

      That is interesting since he has not published any stats yet.

       

      It will take a bit of time before any correct stats can be published since MW3 has so many variables to take into account. Also new features in the overall programming makes it hard to see what is what sometimes.

       

      The stats have never been so complex. In some cases it is just that the same equipment gives different values depending on which gun you use them on, in other it is the programming that is different, just to name an example idle sway is not a fixed value like it was in earlier titles.

       

      Ads time is tied to the raise time and also no longer a fixed value (That is whay so many of you for instance favour quickdraw on the AK-47 but not on the ACR even though both are Assault rifles)

       

      I could make the list go on but I leave that up to Mr Den Kirson or others who are considered trustworthy sources regarding the presentation of in-game stats.

       

      I do at this time agree with the OP regarding this matter. Many looked at a so called "official chart" and saw that the Type 95 was given X value damage and then upon that information formed an opinion regarding said gun without knowing anything about the values for its recoilpatterns or centerspeed and also did not have a clue about the new systems implemented for the behaviour of the guns.

      • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.

        mischaelite wrote:

        I do at this time agree with the OP regarding this matter. Many looked at a so called "official chart" and saw that the Type 95 was given X value damage and then upon that information formed an opinion regarding said gun without knowing anything about the values for its recoilpatterns or centerspeed and also did not have a clue about the new systems implemented for the behaviour of the guns.

        Oh how I hope you know  this was supposed to be sarcastic.........

      • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.

        mischaelite wrote:

         

        That is interesting since he has not published any stats yet.

         

        It will take a bit of time before any correct stats can be published since MW3 has so many variables to take into account. Also new features in the overall programming makes it hard to see what is what sometimes.

         

        The stats have never been so complex. In some cases it is just that the same equipment gives different values depending on which gun you use them on, in other it is the programming that is different, just to name an example idle sway is not a fixed value like it was in earlier titles.

         

        Ads time is tied to the raise time and also no longer a fixed value (That is whay so many of you for instance favour quickdraw on the AK-47 but not on the ACR even though both are Assault rifles)

         

        I could make the list go on but I leave that up to Mr Den Kirson or others who are considered trustworthy sources regarding the presentation of in-game stats.

         

        I do at this time agree with the OP regarding this matter. Many looked at a so called "official chart" and saw that the Type 95 was given X value damage and then upon that information formed an opinion regarding said gun without knowing anything about the values for its recoilpatterns or centerspeed and also did not have a clue about the new systems implemented for the behaviour of the guns.

        That chart is real. Den would have pointed it out as wrong if so. He hasn't made one for MW3 yet because someone beat him to it. Maybe sometime in the future will he bother with it. He has one for BF3, he would have done one for MW3 if so.

         

        By the way, check your sarcasm sensors. David was showing sarcasm towards morons thinking that skill, connection, and the looks of the gun are all related to gun balance. He certainly got you.

         

        And no, you are wrong about whatever you just said.

        • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
          mischaelite

          There is nothing wrong with the so called "official chart" (the one that everybody has) if that is what you mean except for some odd values here and there. It is just that it lacks values for recoil,centerspeed, sway, proficiency % depending on gun class etc etc.

          However the values in the chart as of now are correct but a bit too sparse. In fact I can recommend using it for reference until more extensive work has been done.

           

          You will (as I have previously stated) see once Mr kirson is done compiling all the data that it will be a thing far more complex and with more values to regard than previous CoDs. In the last mail he said that he would most likley have the time to pice it all togheter over the holidays.

           

          So there is absolutley nothing wrong with what I have said. And yes of course I know you were beeing sarcastic.

    • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
      vileself

      Thats funny sinse the PM-9 would **** the Type95 at close range.

       

      If Im playing like Im holding an SMG then Ill use the PM-9. If Im playing like Im holding an AR then Ill use the Type95. Different weapons call for different playstyles. PM-9 will benefit more from run n gun, Type96 will benefit more from camping.

  • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
    Snipingdbag

    Aiming skill is important though & lag plays a part in how good a gun is, once a player has minimal lag and some aiming ability, you can look at the most important statistic; recoil / accuracy (thus needing less aiming abilty for kills if it's low and good), fire rate and power and thus prove that gun is OP. Which some guns in this game simply are. The t95 is a burst fire gun thus has standard limitations, same for sniper rifles it's harder to claim them being OP than an automatic gun like the Famas in Blops.

     

    Obviously the fmgs akimbo with steady aim are OP in their comfort zone, even without Steady Aim they kill people like flies. Anybody denying that needs his head checked.

    • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.

      Snipingdbag wrote:

       

      Aiming skill is important though & lag plays a part in how good a gun is, once a player has minimal lag and some aiming ability, you can look at the most important statistic; recoil / accuracy (thus needing less aiming abilty for kills if it's low and good), fire rate and power and thus prove that gun is OP. Which some guns in this game simply are. The t95 is a burst fire gun thus has standard limitation, same for sniper rifles it's harder to claim them being OP than an automatic gun like the Famas in Blops.

       

      Obviously the fmgs akimbo with steady aim are OP in their comfort zone, even without Steady Aim the kill people like flies. Anybody denying that needs his head checked.

      Lag, human actions, and any other ridiculous variable you guys want to add do not contribute to WEAPON balance.

       

      The devs don't think about lag, human skill, or how the gun sounds when balancing them. They only think about what should kill in this amount of bullets, which holds a higher RoF, or which should get a low recoil, but slower reload.

       

      3 will always be less than 6, but 3+5 is greater than 6. 3 is only greater when you ADD something to it. It is less than 6 without.

       

      Just like the weapon balance. The CM901 will always be bad against the ACR until you add some 3.0 KDR guy to it.

       

      That is one of the many reasons why variables shouldn't be thrown into these weapon discussions. Flawed, stupid, and moronic.

      • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
        atiredoldguy

        There can be no such thing as the perfect weapon balance you describe as long as there is more than one weapon ... unless the only thing they change is the appearance.

         

         

        You can take any two weapons, and each one will be better in a specific situation ...... VARABLE.

         

        You can take two players who are equally good, and give the the same weapon. One will do better with it than the other. Its not necessarily overall skill, but specific kind of skill ... for example, one might be better at aiming quickly, while the other may be better at maintaining aim.. VARIABLE.

         

        Take two players with slihtly different tactics, give them the same weapon, Say one likes slightly more open space than the other .. still runners, but just slightly different. They will perform differently. .... VARIABLE

         

        Each weapon has its strong points and weak points. Take the type 95 for example. Most people call it op . But after about 30 or 40 yards, a pistol is just about as deadly. You can hardly call a weapon with the damage of a pistol op., just because it works well in a specific situation.

         

        Every map, every part of every map, every specific situation in the same place on the same map adds a variable. You cant say that variables dont count in balance.

         

        What the devs do, is give you a choice of variables to add to the equation .... assortments of weapons, with assortments of attachments and proficiencies. By doing so, they make the possibility of overall balance in the game....... but its up to you to make that balance happen.... and the balance is ALL about variables.

        • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
          brandaman

          I hope you know that the Type 95 has the longest range in the game, so the minimum damage is hardly even reached. It would still be much more effective than a pistol.

        • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.

          atiredoldguy wrote:

          [gibberish]

          There is such thing as perfect balance. MW2, CoD4, and WaW were close. There is one or two things that held them back. MW2's explosions and Commando/OMA exploit, WaW's MP40, CoD4's versatile M16 and Chuck Norris 'nades. All of those removed and the best games in the franchise are now better.

           

          Two weapons can be better in their own way. One holds slower RoF, but holds slower recoil. The other has a high RoF, but holds a strong muzzle climb. Both are equal. Isn't that perfect balance?

           

          None of what you said makes total sense. Like David says in every moronic Skill cryout, by your logic, a 20,000,000 RPM weapon that kills in 1 shot and ADS time is instant is balanced.

           

          Again, when the developers do balance, do they think about human intelligence or maps? Do they implement lag just to make that weapon balanced? Go ask one of them. Ask Ghandi if anyone in the MP department thinks about player skill, lag, or any other dumb variable when looking over balance of weapons.

           

          "Well dis wepon iz balansed cuz if da gam lags it suks, hurrr"

          "Dis wepon is balzned cuz if u gud, it is not OhhPeee, duurrrrrrrrrr"

          "Itz uuggly. Balazend. DURRRR"

           

          I clone myself Plat#1 uses Type 95. Other uses M16. #1 wins because the Type95 kills in one less bullet and the second bullet will come before the M16 even fires its second shot because of the 1000 RPM of the Type 95. That is a problem.

           

          fmg - Your argument is invalid

           

          This community disappoints me to the fullest. Morons trying to pull off a skill arguement in BF forums is trolled and he/she disappears. Anyone who gives a valid reason there about something that needs to be nerfed/buffed may get his wishes becoming true because the devs looked into it. It happened twice already. The IRNV scope and now the USAS Frag Rounds. Arguments for keeping those from being nerfed? "Get good!" "u mad".

           

          This one? Pfffft. Stroking your ego by saying "You just suck, I can beat them with a pistol with my eyes closed whilist performing heart surgery" is enough to say some weapon is balanced. Oh, the funnies I get from those.

          • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.

            I honestly wished that IW went by "MW2 balance logic." Every gun had a reason to be there. Every gun had it's positives and negatives about it. Not one gun didn't stand out as the "god gun."

          • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
            atiredoldguy

            No .. it wouldnt be perfect, because one would still be better than the other in some way. And even if the differense in rof was 1 bullet ......... the one would suddenly have a 20,000,000 rof weapon that kills with 1 bullet and ads instantly, and people would ball their head off about it.

             

            There has been the same story with every release. Each one has the absolute worst balance of any game in history, yet when the next one comes out it will be used as an example of somewhat decent balance.

             

            If you want to b*tch and complain constantly thats fine, I realize some people just have to have an excuse for every time they get killed. But that doesnt mean those who just try to make the best of what's there are moronic. You want to see mornic ....... go back and find some of your posts from previous releases, then compare them with your posts on MW3.

             

            If you didnt try so hard to find things to cry about you just might find yourself having fun in the game. I think the only reason some of you buy the game is just so you can complain about it.

    • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
      vileself

      The P90 with steady aim is OP'ed at close range so why cant akimbo FMG9's be OP'ed at close range with the same setup. Throw rapid fire on the P90 and it would destroy any FMG9 akimbo at close range. Put a silencer on it aswell and you can do that while remaining silent. You can also ADS and conserve far more ammo.

       

      Akimbo FMG'9s are not a problem. People are retarded!

      • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
        brandaman

        P90 is better at close range? Let's work this out...

         

        P90:

        DAMAGE: 42-20

        ROF: 857rpm

        +Rapid Fire: +25% = 1071rpm

        DPS: 750

         

        FMG Akimbo:

        DAMAGE: 40

        ROF: 1034

        +Rapid Fire effect from Akimbo: +25% = 1293

        +Double ROF due to two guns: +100% = 2586

        DPS: 1724

         

        Hmm, yes. The FMG Akimbo has more than double the DPS of the P90. And hell, the P90 has a (redundant) 2 damage advantage. Take that away and it gets even worse. P90 Damage Per Second goes down to 571! That makes the FMG's give out more than TRIPLE the damage of the P90 in the same time frame.

         

        I think you lost this one.

  • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
    atiredoldguy

    What I dont get is if stats are such proof of a weapon being so op, why people need to exaggerate the numbers to try to prove their point.

    • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
      brandaman

      Because people argue that stats don't prove a weapon is overpowered. So you throw a weapon out with insane stats and see what they think of that, if that would be OP or not.

      • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
        atiredoldguy

        brandaman wrote:

         

        Because people argue that stats don't prove a weapon is overpowered. So you throw a weapon out with insane stats and see what they think of that, if that would be OP or not.

        Ok .... lets see how this works.

         

        I look at stats ..... hmmmm ....... handguns. Pretty much everyone will agree that handguns are about the most useless weapons in the game.

         

        But wait ......... the p99 does 49 damage and fires at 1200 rpm.

        Thats more damage and higher fire rate than most of the ars and smgs.

         

        Obviously an op weapon since its a secondary ....

        Am I right?

         

        ( Waits for response ........... ok .... I'll give the response)

         

        But its a semi auto, only holds 12 rounds and does sh*t at range.

         

        (reply to response)

        So just because its a semi auto and does sh*t at range then if one shot instakilled ebveryone on the map would it be op then?

         

        Ahhhhhh ........... I see how it works now. The p99 is definitely, unarguably the most op weapon in the game since if it instakilled everyone on the map it surely would be. The p99 gotta have a nerf.......... or better yet just remove it from the game.

         

        I say we need to make at least 10 threads a day about these noobs hiding in the corner with assassin, using the p99 and wrecking the awesome killstreak that I earned respectably.

        • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
          brandaman

          The P99 is single fire, has low range, and low damage at range. These are drawbacks.

           

          The Type 95 is burst fire, has HUGE range, and low damage at range that doesn't really make a difference, since the range on the gun is so big anyway.

           

          Also, stop putting so many damn ellipsis everywhere!

           

           

          atiredoldguy wrote:

           

          (reply to response)

          So just because its a semi auto and does sh*t at range then if one shot instakilled ebveryone on the map would it be op then?

          I don't think you understand anything. Please, just leave. That argument was against people who say stats don't make a gun overpowered. You're just an idiot.

          • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
            atiredoldguy

            brandaman wrote:

             

            The P99 is single fire, has low range, and low damage at range. These are drawbacks.

             

            The Type 95 is burst fire, has HUGE range, and low damage at range that doesn't really make a difference, since the range on the gun is so big anyway.

             

            Also, stop putting so many damn ellipsis everywhere!

             

             

            atiredoldguy wrote:

             

            (reply to response)

            So just because its a semi auto and does sh*t at range then if one shot instakilled ebveryone on the map would it be op then?

            I don't think you understand anything. Please, just leave. That argument was against people who say stats don't make a gun overpowered. You're just an idiot.

            Well......... stats say that the p99 is op.

            And accorging to your rules of a discussion ..... this doesnt make me an idiot, it makes me right.

             

            So basically you have to agree with one of 3 things.

            1) the p99 is horribly op

            2) stats dont mean anything

            3) you just think you're right regardless of what proof others give.

            • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
              brandaman

              No... The stats don't say it's overpowered. They say it has horrible range, horrible damage at range, and is a single fire weapon. They say it has a twelve bullet clip. Herp a derp.

            • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.

              but stats say that it isn't overpowered...

              it fires at a maximum of 1200rpm, takes 3 shots to kill and has terrible range, a small magazine, a large amount of recoil (compared to primaries) and is semi automatic.

               

              that makes you wrong.

            • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.
              mischaelite

              I can see what you are getting at because the handguns in this game are really strong. Try the Magnums in Akimbo, they have the farthest range and press both firebuttons twice at mid range and the results will probably be to your liking.

               

              The P99 handgun is great if you want to switch to a secondary with a silencer fast. If you and your enemy where to switch weapons from primaries to seconadry weapons and you had the P99 and the other guy machinepistols in Akimbo you would be well on your way into your second shot before he had the chance to fire.

               

              Even though the range has been cut, the FMG9s is still the best bet if you have a class with SoH Pro since the perk allows you to switch fast between weapons. I only use handguns on classes without SoH Pro. I just prestiged to lvl 4 and thought of bringing the Desert Eagles over but bought the 10:th and last custom class instead .

               

              Next time I will invest in the Desert Eagle so I can start out from the beginning with a strong secondary that can be switched over to real fast without SoH. To get a handgun in Akimbo it usually only takes a few rounds of FFA playing only that gun. That will also give you a feel for how strong the handguns in this game really are, especially the "Deagle" since the damage never drops below 25.

              This way I will not be bothered should they decide to nerf the FMG9s even further....

              • Re: Whoever uses stats to show a point about balance is a idiot.

                mischaelite wrote:

                 

                I can see what you are getting at because the handguns in this game are really strong. Try the Magnums in Akimbo, they have the farthest range and press both firebuttons twice at mid range and the results will probably be to your liking.

                 

                The P99 handgun is great if you want to switch to a secondary with a silencer fast. If you and your enemy where to switch weapons from primaries to seconadry weapons and you had the P99 and the other guy machinepistols in Akimbo you would be well on your way into your second shot before he had the chance to fire.

                 

                Even though the range has been cut, the FMG9s is still the best bet if you have a class with SoH Pro since the perk allows you to switch fast between weapons. I only use handguns on classes without SoH Pro. I just prestiged to lvl 4 and thought of bringing the Desert Eagles over but bought the 10:th and last custom class instead .

                 

                Next time I will invest in the Desert Eagle so I can start out from the beginning with a strong secondary that can be switched over to real fast without SoH. To get a handgun in Akimbo it usually only takes a few rounds of FFA playing only that gun. That will also give you a feel for how strong the handguns in this game really are, especially the "Deagle" since the damage never drops below 25.

                This way I will not be bothered should they decide to nerf the FMG9s even further....

                The only use for handguns is for the faster draw time. Machine Pistols are automatic, hold more range, have a smaller learning curve, more viable when Akimbo'd, and faster firerate.

                 

                Using a DEagle is asking for FMG to kill you. Akimbo or not.