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  • 400. Re: Shotgun balance thread

    Brick, as much as I do fully support your thread (perhaps not the buff exactly, but the idea behind it), using real life examples is not gonna get you anywhere in a CoD game. Barrett .50cal hitmarker? So yeah, don't do that. Just compare to the other weapons in the game.

  • 401. Re: Shotgun balance thread

    In the m60 video I fire right into his right upper thigh.  If I were to use an smg hipfiring while aiming at that same spot that guy dies.  You can clearly see that I slip through the gap in his shots in his first pass over me and he does not land a shot on my frame until just after 19 seconds.  And then his second shot on target kills me.


    I want to see those videos if they are from theater mode.  If they are from a pvr then I can tell you it is lag because the theater mode records what the game actually says happened while a pvr just records what you see.  That is why I want a pvr.  If I had one of those I could show so many more hitmarkers.  It is clear that some of them are due to lag, those are easy to spot.  But the theater mode one record what the game actually says happened and that is why those ones above are so WTF.


    The thing is though the hitmarker problems are only part of the reason I want shotguns buffed.  From mw1 and 2 the shotguns have always had the ability to be a 2 pellet kill up close with stopping power.  From mw2 to mw3 smgs, ARs ,Snipers, and lmgs are just as powerful as some of their other weapons from other mw2 with stopping power up close.  The ARs have the stopping power damage up close and rate of fire of the faster firing assault rifles like the acr and m4 from mw2.  The smgs are supper powered with all of them being a 3 bullet kill up close and highly controllable with rapid fire giving them all sub .15 second time to kill up close.  Snipers have strait up stopping power.  Lmgs are like the mw2 mg4 and m240.  But you need to level shotguns up to 28 simply to make near them usable but still  worse than the mw2 shotguns without stopping power.


    The hitmarker thing is just the cherry on top of general shotgun weakness crap sunday.


    And remember even if they do get lag back to mw2 levels every weapon becomes more powerful and consistent not just shotguns.  And frankly my trust in them in regard to fixing the lag is not strong at all.


    I'm thankful that you at least sound receptive to our ideas.  We catch a lot of hate and I 'm not sure why.

  • 402. Re: Shotgun balance thread

    yeah I know that was just part of the conversation above.

  • 403. Re: Shotgun balance thread

    Ghandi  and everyone in here.


    I just did some extensive testing in regards to current shotgun one shot kill range.  Ranges were tested using the xm25.  Testing was done on stationary standing targets in a private match using both range and damage with steady aim, i.e optimal conditions.  Here are the results.


    Spas w damage - got consistent one shot kills at around 16.5 meters.


    spas w range - got consistent one shot kills from just about 17.5 meters.


    1887 w damage - got consistent one shot kills at 16.5 meters, and had about 1/5 to 1/7 of shots at max range kill in one shot.  So almost same reliable range as spas with damage but can get some luckier long shots.


    1887 with range - got reliable one shot kills to 16 meters.  Range actually harms the 1887 at max range because it drops to a 5 pellet kill right after 16 meters with range as opposed to being a 4 pellet kill at 17.5 meters (max range) with damage.  Some lucky shots occurred but not significant.


    ksg with damage - got consistent one shot kills at its max range (15.3 meters)  The spread is tight enough that the ksg is able to land the required 5 pellets at its max range about 80-90% of the time. 


    Ksg with range - got consistent one shot kills out to 16.6 meters and some lucky ones out to 17.6 meters (very rare).  (5 pellet kill range ends at 16.6 meters)


    Now here is the interesting part the spas' reliable one shot kill range with range on was just about 17.5 meters.  At that range the spas is a 5 pellet kill.  Out of a couple hundred shots we only got a few from any further than that.  Here is the kicker the spas is a 5 pellet kill out to 18.4 meters.  But it was only reliable out to 17.5 meters because the spread at that range is not tight enough to reliably land 5 pellets beyond 17.5 meters.  So with a perfect shot and steady aim the spas can land 5 pellets at 17.5 meters.


    With my proposal of 36 damage per pellet up close on the spas it has a 4 pellet kill with range on of 17.15 meters.  Anything past 17.15 will take 5+ pellets to kill.  Remember though the current spas can already OSK past that so we know the spas can kill in its 5 pellet kill range.  But we also know that it can only take advantage of its 5 pellet kill range out to a certain range because of the spread.  That range happens to be 17.5 meters approx.  So with my proposal the one shot kill range of the spas will not be increased at all.


    The same goes with the 1887.  It can one shot kill at 16.5 meters right now with damage.  But the 1887 is a 4 pellet kill all the way out to 17.5 meters with damage so we know that it can only reliably take advantage of its 4 pellet kill range out to 16.5 meters because of its spread size.  With my proposal of 40 close range damage on the 1887 its 4 pellet kill range is pretty long at 18.6 meters, but remember because of its spread it can only reliably land 4 pellets at around 16.5 meters with some lucky ones going out to 17.5.  The reliable one shot kill range of the 1887 with my buff proposal will not increase its one shot kill range either.


    The ksg is a little different.  Its tight spread and extra pellet allow it to take advantage of its 5 pellet kill range in its entirety.  With my buff proposal the ksg will have an expected one shot kill range of 17.25 meters.  my buff proposal will extend its maximum one shot kill potential from 16.6 meters to 17.25 meters.  .65 meters is not a long way.  The ksg has a short one shot kill by comparison to the others anyway so this is more of a balance than a buff to its one shot range.


    The only shotgun to have its one shot kill range effected by the proposals in the op of this thread is the ksg.  The ksg will have its maximum reliable one shot kill range extended by .65 meters.  For the most part these buff proposals do not make the manual action shotguns more capable only more reliable.  I have thought these numbers through and I believe this is an extremely fair proposal.

  • 404. Re: Shotgun balance thread

    The AA-12 was not buffed because we intentionally wanted it not to be an all purpose SG because it is full auto. Overuse of this gun would lead to negative performance spikes.


    The Model-1887 was not buffed because the team wished this gun to be one that takes skill to use effectively.


    No offense to GHANDI but I lol'd at the responses in regards to not buffing both of these shotguns.


    I admit I rarely use the AA-12 much but when I've gone against a player using the AA-12, my SMGs & Assault Rifles can demolish them. (which makes me sorry for AA-12 players).


    Let's not forget the starting ammo in the AA-12. Pathetic really considering that it is a primary weapon now. It forces you to use either Scavenger or the Specialist Package as the reload time is shocking.


    I can't think of a weapon that forces you to use a perk like the AA-12.


    If the AA-12 was that OP or a "noob" weapon according to the developers, the times I would be killed by a player using the AA-12 would be alongside the ACR, MP7, PP90, Striker etc.


    Model 1887, the second worst inconsistent shotgun in the game.


    I don't understand the devs view on Model 1887 & skill. If the shotgun is getting hitmarkers at blank range, how does skill become a factor?

  • 405. Re: Shotgun balance thread

    Buff Shotguns

    GT - ramsgateboy

  • 406. Re: Shotgun balance thread

    Do they not realize that even if they did buff the shotguns and made them really powerful they're still shotguns?

  • 407. Re: Shotgun balance thread

    I thank you for the time you have put into this thread but they arent going to buff the shotguns. They clearly embrace QScoping with the addition of quickdraw in this game. I use the the spas 12 alot myself. When it kills the way it is supposed to. I find it more enjoyable than the easy guns in the game. I was a heavy ACR and MP7 user myself.


    Snipers and shotguns are the only one shot kill primary weapons in the game. Snipers are medium to long range and shotguns close to medium range. Everything else covers the middle while killing at all ranges with more or less bullets.


    My problem with the balance in this game is that a sniper rifle can one shot kill at any range while a shotgun can get hit markers with someones mouth on the barrel of your shotgun. This gives you the WTF moments with center mass shots as well. I should dominate CQC. Instead I have to dance around like a chicken in between hitmarker shots.


    GT   HiDefKillswitch

  • 408. Re: Shotgun balance thread

    depends on the sniper rifle, atleast for me.  (personally, the art of sniping has become less important to COD creators over the year).


    The .50 cal typically is a one-shot kill, so i tend to use it most IF i actually have enough patience to snipe.  I figured i would try something new, i.e. RSSM; bad decision.


    Put on recon and use the RSSM, you will get plenty of paint balls hit markers all day, that is about it!!

  • 409. Re: Shotgun balance thread

    I just did some testing specifically  regarding the aa12.   With damage and range its average 1 shot kill range was about 5-6 meters.  The aa12's 2 shot kill range is about 8 meters with damage and range.  Then it quickly deteriorates down to a 5 shot kill at 11 meters (max range without range prof) with damage and a 6 shot kill without damage or range.  With range the aa12 is a 6 shot kill on average at max range 14 meters.


    From this testing we can see that the aa12 with steady aim will land on average 3 pellets per shot at max range.  (The guy has 100 health so 100 health/7 damage per pellet with damage on = 14.3 pellets required to kill so we have to round up to 15 pellets to kill.  It took 5 shots with damage on to land the 15 pellets so it landed 3 pellets per shot on average.)


    The aa12 has almost no one shot kill ability. (with moving targets and the propensity for spray and pray the weapon will not be able to take advantage of its one shot kill range)  The aa12 has a fire rate of around 400 rpm that gives it a time between shots of .15 seconds.  So since we know on average how many rounds to kill at each distance we can get good average tome to kill guess.  (note I let the gun settle between shots to insure accuracy actual time to kill will likely be slower because of recoil sending the shots above the target)


    The aa12 was a 2 shot kill out to 8 meters so that gives it a time to kill of 0.15 seconds.  (The gun instantly fires the first shot so we don't count it and only needs to rechamber and fire one round which takes .15 seconds)  At max range (11 meters w/o range prof) the gun takes 5 shots to kill so that gives it a time to kill of 0.6 seconds.  That is not very good. 


    The range proficiency performs similar but it has less one shot kill range (almost non existent).  The range proficiency extends its reach to about 14 meters but because of the loss lower damage compared to the damage proficiency leads to a similar 2 shot kill range of 8 meters giving it a time to kill of .15 again.  And it takes 6 shots at 14 meters (max range with range prof) giving it a time to kill of 0.75 seconds.  That is truly aweful.


    The last bit of testing I did was the pp90 with rapid fire hipfire time to kill.  The pp90 with rapid fire shoots at 1200 rpm, that gives it a time between shots of 0.05 seconds.   At 10 meters the spread was tight enough that it only took 3 shots to kill hip firing full auto (had to slow down to see which bullet killed).  This gives it a time to kill of 0.1 seconds inside of 10 meters hip fire only.  At 14 meters (max aa12 range with range prof) the pp90 usually took 5-6 bullets to kill (again had to slow down to check). That gives it  a time to kill ranging from 0.20 to 0.25 seconds at that range.  Pretty good.


    I did  a final test with the pp90 hipfiring only at 22 meters (max spas,1887,usas range)  It usually took somewhere between 20-25 shots to kill at that range giving the pp90 hip fire a time to kill ranging from 0.95 to 1.20 seconds.  That is still faster than any shotgun's time to kill at max range.  But this post is more for the aa12 so lets get back on that.


    PP90 hipfire inside of the aa12's range varies from 0.10 seconds inside of 10 meters to .25 seconds inside of 14 meters and has limited ability to kill out to 22+ meters.


    AA12 with steady aim had a time to kill varying from 0.15 seconds inside of 8 meters to 0.75 seconds at 14 meters.  The aa12 is entirely outclassed by the pp90's hipfire in every inch of its range and heavily outclassed after 8 meters.  The pp90 also comes with 100 rounds with emags on so it can easily kill 10-15 targets with that ammo loadout.  The aa12 comes with 24 with emags which has the ability to kill about 5-7  people.  And then of course you can ads with the pp90 and easily kill out to 18-20 meters quickly.


    The aa12 needs some rebalancing.  The suggestion in the op of this thread makes the aa12 far more balanced giving it a time to kill ranging from .15 up close to .45 seconds at 14 meters.  This is weaker up close than the emags glitch aa12 was and about the same at range.


    Here is a video of testing done this morning.


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