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Shotgun Balance Thread V2

Due to Brick's post being locked I am going to remake it, I'm just copying his post because that buff was perfect. Hope we can have a good discussion about the balance of shotguns.


I want you all to know that we do NOT want the shotguns to be stronger at range or want them to be OP, we just want them to have a chance at close range.


Here's the post by Brick2urface, all credit goes to him for making this buff:







Okay here is how this is going to work.  I am going to tell you what the shotgun community wants ( what we feel is fair and balanced in mw3) and you will either agree with it by signing your gamertag and writing "buff the shotguns" in your post.  Or you can argue with me as to how my suggestions will unbalance shotguns and I will try to convince you otherwise.


Please do not offer your own suggestions about how shotguns should be fixed.  I have participated in tons of shotgun threads here and on denkirson forums and we feel as though these buffs will eliminate almost all of the complaints about shotguns with minimal work required of the devs.  In other words I have been able to convince most shotgunners that this is the most likely thing we can ask for from the devs that they will actually do, its our best chance to see significant improvement.


All posters must include gamertag so others can check their elite profile to see if they have enough experience with these weapons to make an informed opinion.  


Okay so here is what we think will balance the shotguns in mw3.


spas12:  Increase close range damage to 36 per pellet, giving it 36-14 damage stock.

1887:     Increase close range damage to 40 per pellet, giving it 40-20 damage stock.

ksg 12:  Increase close range damage to 36 per pellet, giving it 36-15 damage stock.

usas 12:  Increase long range damage to 7 per pellet, giving it 25-7 damage stock.

aa 12:   Increase close range damage to 20 per pellet, and increase long range damage to 10 per pellet.  This gives the aa12 20-10 damage stock.  Also the aa12 needs 2 more clips of starting ammo to make scavenger less needed.  The gun is already weak enough, It doesn't need an ammo handicap.

striker is fine as is.  Still a very competent gun in mw3.  Not nooby or too hard to use.


6/27/12 edit:

We also need the pump shotguns to have 80% movement speed while ads.  This is the same as smgs are in mw3.  Pump shotguns have had 80-100% ads mobility for a long time in the cod series so its another standard feature pump shotguns have had for a while and we want that back.


The pump action shotguns should also have a degree of spread tightening while ads.  It was a good feature from black ops.  In black ops ads with the stake out gave it a spread of 3 degrees which is tighter than its steady aim hipfire.  Ads is a good way to make your shots as accurate as possible but right now if you are using steady aim on shotguns when you ads your spread will enlarge back to its default (non steady aim size).  We feel that trading some mobility for increased range effectiveness is a good feature for mw3 pump shotguns.  The particular numbers are 3.5-4 ads spread on the 1887.

3.25-4 ads spread on the spas and ksg.  Only the 1887 might need a slightly tighter ads spread than steady aim allows.  Its got the damage at range but its spread is still to large with steady aim to take advantage of that extra range damage.  (Edit end)


The 1887 needs 40 damage up close because it has a very short max damage range ( 300 inches opposed to 400 on spas and ksg)  Making the 1887 do 40 damage per pellet up close allows its slow damage drop to catch up to the other shotguns and would give it a similar 2 pellet kill range with damage (still shorter than spas and ksg but only by 20 inches or so).


Almost every one felt the long range damage on the pumps was fine and it was the close range inconsistencies were the most frustrating feature of pump shotguns. With 36 close range damage you are no longer pigeon holed into range, damage, or even steady aim.  This increases the versatility of the least versatile gun category in the game.  We have had this damage before in mw3.  The pre 1.08 spas12 did 420 damage up close.  I very rarely found the spas unreliable up close.  So we know that 400+ damage up close works for reliability.  And we know it isn't op because there wasn't a single nerf the spas thread in this forum.  There were tons of buff the spas at range threads in this forum though.  So that goes to show the community was fine with 400+ close range and just wanted more damage at range for the spas.  36-14 does that quite nicely.


The usas 12 is weak in the last 1/5 of its range and can require up to 4-5 shots at range even with damage proficiency.  With 25-7 damage the damage proficiency will make it a reliable 3 shot kill at range.  That means that it will still take 0.8 seconds to kill at max range.  Any other gun in the game will kill in less than .18 seconds at that range so we feel this is balanced.  And frankly adding 2 damage per pellet at range is not asking much.


The aa 12 is the worst shotgun in mw3 after the 1.08 patch, terrible range terrible damage, and terrible ammo.  The only saving grace is the rate of fire compared to other shotguns.  But considering the fact that it usually takes 3+ shots to kill and it only puts out 400 rpm,  Its time to kill is extremely bad.  The aa12 usually takes 2 up close and 5-7 shots at range with good accuracy.  With its fire time of 400 rpm that gives it a time to kill up close of .15 to seconds.  That is fairly respectable.  Only smgs and one shot kills beat that.  And There is still a tiny chance for a 1 shot kill with the aa12 so it performs okay up close.  But at range its time to kill is between 0.6 and 0.9 seconds.  That is unacceptable.  Avery other gun in mw3 will kill in less than .18 seconds at that range.  And the aa12's range is so limited that it becomes extremely difficult to use.  So the 20-10 makes the aa12 a 2 shot kill up close with a slightly improved one shot kill chance.  Still not a good chance but improved from where it is now anyway.  But at range the 10 damage makes it a 4 shot kill making it far more reliable by only taking 0.45 seconds to kill at range.  That still isn't good compared to other primaries but hey its an auto shotgun so whatever.  This is weaker in every way than its mw2 version but I think it will be balanced in mw3.


5/26/12 edit:

After testing the current reliable one shot kill range of the pumps we have changed the proposal numbers so that only the ksg will have an increase in reliable one shot kill range.  The spas and 1887 will not be able to kill reliable from any further than they do right now if the above numbers are implemented.  And the ksg will only have a .65 meter increase in reliable one shot kill range.  (Edit end)


We have had a 2/8 pellet kill up close on shotguns since cod 2 up to mw2, then black ops had its terrible shotguns that no one used, then we had had it again with the pre 1.08 patch spas with damage and emags "glitch" in mw3.  The cod community is fine with a 2 pellet kill on shotguns.  The community has not complained about the 2/8 pellet kill on shotguns in the last 6 games that had them so we know they are fine with it.


Then of course shotguns have lost their spread tightening while ads feature that they have had for so long.  And also shotguns used to move at 80% speed while ads, now they move at 40%.  Shotguns in mw3 have lost significant strength in their core stats and in their handling.  No other weapon class can say that in mw3.


There is a basic principle with the other guns in mw3.  The slower the rate of fire the more damage each shot should do.  The low rate of fire automatics ARs have high damage, then higher than them is the burst fire ARs, then higher than them is the mk14.  With shotguns The pumps shoot the slowest so they should do the most damage per shot at any range.


That's about it.  And remember post your gamer tag if you want to participate in this thread.


Buff the shotguns!


Gamertags that support this thread:


Xbox: xNZx VIMS, Stormshdw7, SCOLIA5044




PS3: Warden816

  • 1. Re: Shotgun Balance Thread V2

    Well looks like we are going to have to gone on without brick. Mission accomplished for the trolls on the last thread.


    Anyway I don't got much to say because I agree with with everything said above. The only thing I'll add is that pump shotguns should have their flinch significantly reduced. You are at a major disadvantage in gunfights due to flinch with pump shotguns.


    Posting GT again


    PSN ID- warden816


    Buff the Shotguns (again)

  • 2. Re: Shotgun Balance Thread V2

    That isn't the major problem. The fast-firing shotguns can easily take a shot and come back with a devastating blow. By this logic, slow firing shotguns require more skill since you have to be the first to shoot. Since there is this skill gap, you are rewarded with more power. That's the problem: Slow firing shotguns are not powerful enough: In a ridiculous way, up to 400 units, the USAS-12 is as much (if not more) powerful than the manual shotguns. Really, a ridiculous mistake.

  • 3. Re: Shotgun Balance Thread V2

    Pump shotguns should not have to rely on the luck of whoever gets the first shot. I was talking about gunfights. You come face to face with someone most of the time your dead if you get or miss or hitmarker. You can use focus to reduce this but you know what? No range or damage. Shotguns are horriblely UP without range or damage. Flinch effects pump shotguns more then any other gun because unlike smgs you can't instantly start hitting again once you recenter.

  • 4. Re: Shotgun Balance Thread V2

    You say this now, but imagine if the Spas-12 gets its 36 damage up close. Know what will happen? You will be free to use Focus, if that's what bothers you.

  • 5. Re: Shotgun Balance Thread V2

    Usas-12 Damage & Extended Mags + increased sprint > all shotguns. It's the only shotgun that has a fair fight in this game..

  • 6. Re: Shotgun Balance Thread V2

    Higher damage does nothing to help a missed shot due to flinch. Focus would still be a poor choice over range or damage. I don't how this would make shotguns OP. Look at snipers, they get less flinch to compensate for their low RoF. Why don't pump shotguns also gets it when snipers do? They need it just as much.

  • 7. Re: Shotgun Balance Thread V2

    Definately, USAS=Striker>>>>>>>>>>>other shotguns.

  • 8. Re: Shotgun Balance Thread V2

    Wonder if the model will get a buff with the July maps, pretty sure it has been mentioned somewhere (along with others).

  • 9. Re: Shotgun Balance Thread V2

    If the model gets buffed to a 2 pellet kill we'll at least have a usable pump shotgun.


    Psn: lorki7

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