26 Replies Latest reply: Jul 25, 2012 12:11 AM by like2nap03 RSS

Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3

like2nap03

This just occurred to me tonight.  Both MW3 and Ops had lag comp. Both caused deaths.  I think the reason it's so obvious in MW3, besides the fact that MW3 runs smoother, is the high weapon damage.  Or low health.  However you want to put it. You have all these high rate of fire submachine guns, low health, and lag comp to boot.  It's no wonder you appear to die instantly.  I think one thing that may help is if the health was like it is in Black Ops.  Where it takes more shots to kill you.  The split second difference may be enough time to get in an extra shot or react fast enough to do something instead of appearing to die instantly.  Just a though. 

 

Here's an example.  A p90, can shoot like 14 rounds a second according to a chart I just found.  It can kill you in 3.  If all of the first 3 shots hit, that's less than a quarter of a second and you're dead.  This is why I get accused of hacking as do so many others.  My aim is dead on most of the time due to the best FPS controls scheme the Wii has ever seen.  (Also a control scheme I hope makes it to black ops 2.  And I'm talking about the controls in MW3. They are a step above Black Ops if you take time to really queak and learn them.)  If I see you first, you'll be dead before you can blink.  Throw in an extra shot or two and that's enough time for the human body to react between the first and last rounds.  That could make a big difference.  Even with lag comp.  At least you may stand a chance.  Now this is taking into account that the game itself isn't laggy.  MW3 runs really smooth for me.  BLack Ops doesn't.  With lag, it's more about luck, but take that out, and with a smooth running game, that extra shot or two is enough time to do more than just fall over dead.  Maybe enough time to strafe while firing and survive the attack.  Don't over do it though.  They looking away from me shouldn't have so much tme that he can turn around, while I'm firing away, and then just drop me....unless he gets a head shot or has a shotgun.  But you get what I mean.

 

I don't know how much they can tweak the current lag comp algorithm.  The one they use is great for these games.  If everyone in the lobby has under 80 ms ping times, then it shouldn't matter.  The way the matchmaking works, it shouldn't be a problem unless the host leaves and a new host is chosen causing ping times to increase for some players.  I think it's more of a matchmaking problem that needs to be resolved.  Each type of lag comp has issues.  No matter what they do there will be some problems.  I think the solution is in the matchmaking.  I'm too tired to think of a complicated solution for this, and probably don't know enough about to anyway, but that's something to think about.  Of course some people have unstable connections or their brother may start streaming youtube while someone is playing and kill the connection.  That can't be helped.  So lag comp will always be an issues that cannot be resolved.  But maybe doing something like this will help.

 

If my numbers are wrong on the p90 feel free to correct me and I can do the math again.  I heard on the Wii it's actually 900rps.  If that's the case then that's 15 shots a second and you're dead even quicker. 

 

So here you go Treyarch team and Mr. Vonderhaar.  Something to consider if you have not done so already.  As far as Wii controls go.  Don't fix it if it ain't broke.  And it ain't broke.  Just watch out for attachment glitches like acog aimbot aim assist.  Even if that was there by design few people like it.

 

Any thoughs on this.  I see a podcast arugment...er um debate...er um good episode coming from something like this. 



Aside from that Treyarch, keep it running smooth, and keep out the hackers =  recipe for greatness. 

  • Re: Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3

    The p90 shoots at ~600-700 rpms on the wii beleive it or not.  The pp90m1 shoots at 900, as does the pm-9  and type 95.  

     

    Also, you said something about the everyone in a lobby having under 80ms ping connections.  I've connected to a game with under a 80ms ping, and never searched for one below 80.  I usually join games with a 90ms ping connection.  Does it have to do with my NAT type, which is moderate?  I know what NAT type is, but would that effect this?

    • Re: Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3
      like2nap03

      Yeah I wasn't sure what the Wii version did.  Let's use the PP90 in the example then.  And that's my point aboutt he ping times.  Most everyone finds a match under 80ms.  But it is very possible for the host to migrate and one player drop to a higher ping time in the same match with a different host. This is where lag comp will take effect.

    • Re: Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3
      fissuresofrequent

      :O You know a ai Fissure~?

    • Re: Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3
      like2nap03

      NAT type mainly effects your ability to host.  Moderate is fine if you have a fast and stable connection and you will rarely (if ever) get host.  Strict can be a pain but you will never host.  Open is best, but you risk being host.  Some people complain about host lag but I only got that on Carbon and Village (Village lags anyway) and even then it wasn't that bad.  I don't host anymore though.  I'm stuck on a moderate NAT for now.  May just leave it there.

       

      Also some people can't tell the difference between Moderate and Open.  I guess it boils down to your attention to detail.  To me it makes a noticeable difference.

  • Re: Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3
    phxs72

    You are correct about health versus weapon damage.  The first thing that I noticed when I switched from BO to MW3 was that it was sooo much easier to kill someone in MW3 than it was in BO.  And yes both games lagged but that extra health (or lower gun damage) did help to even out things somewhat or at least give you a fighting chance.  Generally in BO you could take a 1 bullet hit and still have time to engage the enemy but in MW3 by the time you realize that you've been hit you're probably already dead.

  • Re: Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3

    I strongly agree to this like2nap. Btw, you have a very seductive voice

  • Re: Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3

    Could anyone give me the short version of his speech? Im too lazy to read the whole thing and my eyes are red so..

    • Re: Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3
      like2nap03

      In a nutshell, lag comp is more noticeable, and effects people so much, due to the low health and high rate of fire weapons in MW3.  Unless the hit detection fails, and it rarely does for me, someone can kill you with say a PP90 in less a quarter of a second.  Even without lag comp, that's not enough time for the human body to react.  Throw in an extra shot or two and there is enough time for the human body to react.  You may have time to strafe aside and survive, or even get a kill instead of just falling over dead.

       

      If you want all the details you'll have to read it though!

  • Re: Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3
    Padiego

    I didn't care to read all of it. If you read it in that epic voice, i would listen to it.

     

    Anyways.....Lag Comp in BO wasn't as forgiving as lag comp is in MW3. In MW3, if you have a crap connection, the game pretty much hands you kills in a silver platter. Lag comp in BO was only seen when you got shot around corners. That's pretty much it. But in MW3....you see it everywhere, its so obvious. People pre-firing, getting shot around corners, randomly dying from someone you havent even seen yet.

  • Re: Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3
    nintendon't

    like2nap03 wrote:

     

    Each type of lag comp has issues.

    Not true. Many games have perfect hit detection systems like Halo 2 for example. I was just playing that online the other night and it has pinpoint perfect hit detection. You never get shot around corners at all and you never get sometimes randomly outgunned when you shoot first like on MW3. Not to mention Halo 2 is an Xbox 1 game which is a slightly weaker system then the Wii.

     

    They can fix it. The problem is that they just don't care.

  • Re: Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3
    Shrydo

    They tried something different with the lag comp on mw3....and it failed miserably.  BO2 is supposed to run on the same engine....I hope to God that its not the same lag comp system.

    • Re: Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3
      like2nap03

      Normally when they say "same engine" they mean the graphics engine with some tweaks.  The online is an ever evolving thing.  They always try to improve that from game to game.  The same basic concept is there, but they could in theory use a completely different hit detection/lag comp algorithm. 

       

      Honestly as long as it's not "Lag Ops 2" I'm not too picky.  My main criteria are weapon balance, no lag, good framerate, good controls, good maps, and effective security to stop hacking.    Everything else is icing on the cake or bells and whistles or however you want to put it.

       

      I would love Conduit 2 if it just didn't have lag, had better controls, and the weapon/perk balance made some kind of sense.

  • Re: Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3
    like2nap03

    On a side note, I guess I should mention that I actually like the way MW3 is with damage and lag comp.  It runs perfect for me.  This was just something I realized. People blame lag comp when they die instantly.  But that can happen anyway with some of these guns if the player knows how to aim well and gets you with the first 3 bullets. Obviously lag comp is the problem in some cases, but even if the game is running great, you can still appear to instantly die. 

     

    Honestly, I would prefer they leave the damage alone.  Makes it's a tad more realistic (I know I know, I said realistic when talking about a game where everyone has a better healing factor than Wolverine).  That and I rarely have these lag comp issues.  

  • Re: Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3
    nintendon't

    like2nap03 wrote:

     

    If everyone in the lobby has under 80 ms ping times, then it shouldn't matter.  The way the matchmaking works, it shouldn't be a problem unless the host leaves and a new host is chosen causing ping times to increase for some players.

    MW3's lag problems is a combo of poor lag compensation and piss poor matchmaking. I....er my "friend" used a code in a few matches that shows everyone's ping on the scoreboard in game. Most of the people had pings of 100-300.  Both matchmaking and lag comp need a fix.

    • Re: Something I just realized about lag compensation in MW3
      like2nap03

      I didn't say the lag comp couldn't be tweaked.  What I'm saying is the lag comp issues you see in this game are expected based on the lag comp algorithm they use.  Could they make it better?  Probably.  But if you are in matches with people that have ping times that high then lag comp will definitely be noticeable.  It won't be noticeable IF everyone in the match had ping times under 80ms.  Big "IF" there.  Now you getting into matches with players with ping times that high means one of three things.  Either the game "lies" about ping times when it finds matches, or those players connections are going to crap after the match starts.  No real way to tell but I believe the search stops after 150ms.  Someone correct me on that if I'm wrong.  If that's true, and those ping times are that high, then the game is lying so to speak.  If I'm wrong about the ping cap for searches, then those players just have crappy connections and it's not the games fault at all.  Another option is your friend's code is just wrong.  Agian there is no way to tell.

       

      So let's pick one.  Let's say the code works and the game is misrepresenting the ping times.  If that's the case then the entire problem is the game's matchmaking in some form or another.  The lag comp works how it should and the side effect is to be expected with the type of lag comp used for MW3.  I suspect this method was used because, again, if the ping times are low, there won't be an issue.  If the game is failing in that respect then they need to tweak the matchmaking.  But this lag comp issue, or whatever you want to call it, is to be expected with the method of lag comp used. 

       

      My ping times are always low so I don't get this lag comp benefit.  I also rarely see other players getting this lag comp boost.  It definitely happens to me, but not as often as other people complain about it.  I also run into hackers more than most people too.  This leaves me to believe that the people near me, in the under 80ms range, are a bunch of hackers with good connections.  That's just a guess though.  These games run so different for so many people.  Like what you, me, and Semper were talking about.  Black Ops lags for us, and a lot of other people, but it runs great for you.  MW3 runs great for me, but I see TONS of hacking.  It runs like crap for you, but you don't (based on your past posts) see as much hacking as I do. 

       

      I think we can both agree that something is wrong and something needs to change.  Based on what I said above though, it's not easy to pinpoint exactly what is causing the problem with the game.  The lag comp algorithm works like it should work.  It's only a problem if players have high ping times.  You're seeing high ping times, but we don't know why.  We can guess, as with the 3 scenarios I mentioned, but there is no way to pinpoint it.  I think it's a matchmaking fail.  The lag comp they use shouldn't be a problem if the ping times represented in the match searches are accurate.  It looks like they are not.  So the matchmaking needs a tweak more than anything, but i'm sure they could tweak the lag comp too.  Who knows?  Could be the Wii itself causing the connections to have high ping times for some players. (note that I said "some"). A faulty ethernet port, or usb port, can cause latency.  So could a faulty wireless adapter.   If people with said issue only played MW3 they wouldn't notice it because the lag comp would benefit them.

       

      I don't know enough about how Halo works to comment on it's online play.  And I'm too tired to go look it up.  Obviously it's a lot different than this game.  They don't make things like they used to is the saying.  You're right, funny how some of the older games run better.