39 Replies Latest reply: Oct 27, 2013 3:33 PM by scotland-rules RSS

I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM

scotland-rules

Hi,

 

Recently I've returned to modern warfare 3 and have noticed how great the spawn system is compared to Black Ops II. I'm not saying its perfect but after a few patches the spawn system in MW3 was reasonable when playing Hardcore TDM. One contributing factor as to why I believe the spawns were better and more logical in Hardcore TDM was the spawn delay, this stopped the 3 meter "spawn" away from the enemy you get in BO2.

 

The game had much more time to detect players around them as well as to determine where Killstreaks were and it gave a good spawn point, it wasn't always perfect but it was good enough.

 

It also slowed the game down slightly which on small maps like MW3 had, it worked well as it wasn't a big "mash up" in the middle like you had in Black Ops 2. It was pure chaos and while I like chaos, it quickly became boring due to the bad spawns.

 

What do you think about having the spawn delay in Hardcore TDM again?

Do you think it will return? --> My answer to this is YES simply because infinity ward don't tend to copy black ops too much and the fact its a fresh game.

  • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
    Project-VAG-DANO

    I hope its back for all HC gamemodes.

  • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
    rlbl

    The spawn delay does help with revenge spawns for sure. However there is another side to the coin: HC(TDM) was always a very slow paced game mode. Some would say because people did not want to die (more than just because it is counter productive to winning) because they would have to wait to play again.

     

    personal opinion:

     

    - when killed, a small spawn delay (2-3 second range, longer for some game modes?)

    - when team killed, the offender has a larger spawn delay (10 second and increasing on offenses)

    - no ricochet, and no 3 strikes

     

    Something like that, in principal, could work for all game modes... thoughts on the holes this could cause?

     

    Deliberate team killers would end up sitting in timeout most of the time

    Teams that do not team kill could take the upper hand if an enemy is in timeout

     

    hole: trolls who stand in your way cause you to have longer spawn delay

  • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
    maccabi

    the 10 sec spawn delay in hc tdm made the game mode so slow i was happy when they removed it , but I get why people didnt like it I still prefer it without but i think (and i do remember actually trying to get it changed to thisand failing  the 3 sec spawn delay is/was a fair compromise)

  • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
    Dr_QuiCKScOP3r

    I say let the people vote if they want the timer or no. Let them vote similar to how we can vote on which map to play.

  • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
    rankismet

    scotland-rules wrote:

     

    What do you think about having the spawn delay in Hardcore TDM again?

     

    Personally, no thanks.

     

    If you go 20-10... a decent stat for a round of HC TDM... and happen to be the first person to die every wave spawn (15 secs), you are out of the game for 150 seconds.

     

    That's 2.5 minutes.

     

    25% of the game doing nothing.

     

    Remove revenge as part of the spawn algorithm and 90% of the need for a spawn delay is fixed. HC vets aways have a clue wha streaks they have or they aren't a vet.

     

    My 2 pennies of thought.

    • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
      scotland-rules

      rankismet wrote:

       

      scotland-rules wrote:

       

      What do you think about having the spawn delay in Hardcore TDM again?

       

      Personally, no thanks.

       

      If you go 20-10... a decent stat for a round of HC TDM... and happen to be the first person to die every wave spawn (15 secs), you are out of the game for 150 seconds.

       

      That's 2.5 minutes.

       

      25% of the game doing nothing.

       

      Remove revenge as part of the spawn algorithm and 90% of the need for a spawn delay is fixed. HC vets aways have a clue wha streaks they have or they aren't a vet.

       

      My 2 pennies of thought.

       

      I actually agree with you on the top half but not the second half and I'll tell you why.

       

      Revenge spawn system isn't something that's easily "Removable" or easily "Added" it really depends on map design, you can tell form MW3 where the maps were small that the revenge spawn system was lessened due to the wait penalty, you'd still be killed in spawn or kill a guy and meet him around the corner sometimes but those were few and far between.

       

      In Black Ops 2 the maps were very small and when we did have the spawn delay the game was slower and the spawns were less chaotic and you were less likely to be caught short and the revenge spawn system was almost non exisitant. However, it was shortly removed I think and you then saw things like revenge spawn system creeping up and it eventually got really bad.

       

      I say have for the start of Ghosts and if the maps are like MW2/BO1 (basically any CoD from BO1 downwards to MW) then I say remove the spawn delay as I'll know the spawn system will be better.

       

      However if its like BO2 then we need it because without it, we have chaotic spawns and even worse revenge spawn.

      • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
        rankismet

        scotland-rules wrote:

         

        rankismet wrote:

         

        scotland-rules wrote:

         

        What do you think about having the spawn delay in Hardcore TDM again?

         

        Personally, no thanks.

         

        If you go 20-10... a decent stat for a round of HC TDM... and happen to be the first person to die every wave spawn (15 secs), you are out of the game for 150 seconds.

         

        That's 2.5 minutes.

         

        25% of the game doing nothing.

         

        Remove revenge as part of the spawn algorithm and 90% of the need for a spawn delay is fixed. HC vets aways have a clue wha streaks they have or they aren't a vet.

         

        My 2 pennies of thought.

         

        I actually agree with you on the top half but not the second half and I'll tell you why.

         

        Revenge spawn system isn't something that's easily "Removable" or easily "Added" it really depends on map design, you can tell form MW3 where the maps were small that the revenge spawn system was lessened due to the wait penalty, you'd still be killed in spawn or kill a guy and meet him around the corner sometimes but those were few and far between.

         

        In Black Ops 2 the maps were very small and when we did have the spawn delay the game was slower and the spawns were less chaotic and you were less likely to be caught short and the revenge spawn system was almost non exisitant. However, it was shortly removed I think and you then saw things like revenge spawn system creeping up and it eventually got really bad.

         

        I say have for the start of Ghosts and if the maps are like MW2/BO1 (basically any CoD from BO1 downwards to MW) then I say remove the spawn delay as I'll know the spawn system will be better.

         

        However if its like BO2 then we need it because without it, we have chaotic spawns and even worse revenge spawn.

         

        Map design for certain plays a role... but ever since MW2, the algorithm for deciding on a safe spawn point has included "revenge" as a component. Combine this with matchbox sized maps and you have the wonky system that hindered MW3 and plagues BO2.

         

        Also, BO2 map design does not allow for easy map control (and by result, spawn control) even when working with a 6 man, communicating team. A by product, in my opinion, of designing maps to be played well with 4 man teams. You have 33% fewer players... which means you also have 33% more space per player. The maps become too cluttered.

         

        Cheers.

        • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
          scotland-rules

          rankismet wrote:

           

          scotland-rules wrote:

           

          rankismet wrote:

           

          scotland-rules wrote:

           

          What do you think about having the spawn delay in Hardcore TDM again?

           

          Personally, no thanks.

           

          If you go 20-10... a decent stat for a round of HC TDM... and happen to be the first person to die every wave spawn (15 secs), you are out of the game for 150 seconds.

           

          That's 2.5 minutes.

           

          25% of the game doing nothing.

           

          Remove revenge as part of the spawn algorithm and 90% of the need for a spawn delay is fixed. HC vets aways have a clue wha streaks they have or they aren't a vet.

           

          My 2 pennies of thought.

           

          I actually agree with you on the top half but not the second half and I'll tell you why.

           

          Revenge spawn system isn't something that's easily "Removable" or easily "Added" it really depends on map design, you can tell form MW3 where the maps were small that the revenge spawn system was lessened due to the wait penalty, you'd still be killed in spawn or kill a guy and meet him around the corner sometimes but those were few and far between.

           

          In Black Ops 2 the maps were very small and when we did have the spawn delay the game was slower and the spawns were less chaotic and you were less likely to be caught short and the revenge spawn system was almost non exisitant. However, it was shortly removed I think and you then saw things like revenge spawn system creeping up and it eventually got really bad.

           

          I say have for the start of Ghosts and if the maps are like MW2/BO1 (basically any CoD from BO1 downwards to MW) then I say remove the spawn delay as I'll know the spawn system will be better.

           

          However if its like BO2 then we need it because without it, we have chaotic spawns and even worse revenge spawn.

           

          Map design for certain plays a role... but ever since MW2, the algorithm for deciding on a safe spawn point has included "revenge" as a component. Combine this with matchbox sized maps and you have the wonky system that hindered MW3 and plagues BO2.

           

          Also, BO2 map design does not allow for easy map control (and by result, spawn control) even when working with a 6 man, communicating team. A by product, in my opinion, of designing maps to be played well with 4 man teams. You have 33% fewer players... which means you also have 33% more space per player. The maps become too cluttered.

           

          Cheers.

           

          That's what I'm saying though, if map design isn't good then the spawns would suffer and as a compensation, spawn delay is needed. Even if they removed the revenge spawn elements or reduced them, if bad map design plays again like we've seen from BO2 then the spawn delay would be essential to avoid horrible spawning.

           

          In MW3 one thing that saved HC from experiancing so many problems as the core community did was spawn delay, you watch core videos of TDM and then watch HC videos of TDM, the spawn issues are much less and I put that down to the spawn delay.

           

          I guess the question is: Would you rather have a reasonable spawn system which would incorporate a spawn delay? or would you rather have chaotic spawns and a faster game without it?

           

          Another point about the pace of HC. HC is unique in the sense that it can be fast paced or slow and it all really depends on the players in that lobby. I've went into HC TDMs on MW3 and they've lasted 4 minutes whereas I've went into HC lobbies and they've lasted the full 10 mins.

           

          Plus one more thing to consider is, the spawn delay in HC makes HC what it is. HC is designed to be slightly more realistic, yet also more methodical.

          • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
            Project-VAG-DANO


            The map desgin for ghosts looks alot more thought out, of course time will tell and we wont know for sure until the launch day about all the maps included, but at least for now there is a glimmer of hope.

             

            Either way, spawn delay or not i just hope we dont end up spawning ontop of each other death after death, game after game.

             

            As for question (which i know isnt aimed directly at me) I would much rather have a reasonable spawn system with a delay, even if it is only 2-3 seconds just to the game can figure out somewhere safe to spawn me in.

          • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
            rankismet

            scotland-rules wrote:

             

            rankismet wrote:

             

            scotland-rules wrote:

             

            rankismet wrote:

             

            scotland-rules wrote:

             

            What do you think about having the spawn delay in Hardcore TDM again?

             

            Personally, no thanks.

             

            If you go 20-10... a decent stat for a round of HC TDM... and happen to be the first person to die every wave spawn (15 secs), you are out of the game for 150 seconds.

             

            That's 2.5 minutes.

             

            25% of the game doing nothing.

             

            Remove revenge as part of the spawn algorithm and 90% of the need for a spawn delay is fixed. HC vets aways have a clue wha streaks they have or they aren't a vet.

             

            My 2 pennies of thought.

             

            I actually agree with you on the top half but not the second half and I'll tell you why.

             

            Revenge spawn system isn't something that's easily "Removable" or easily "Added" it really depends on map design, you can tell form MW3 where the maps were small that the revenge spawn system was lessened due to the wait penalty, you'd still be killed in spawn or kill a guy and meet him around the corner sometimes but those were few and far between.

             

            In Black Ops 2 the maps were very small and when we did have the spawn delay the game was slower and the spawns were less chaotic and you were less likely to be caught short and the revenge spawn system was almost non exisitant. However, it was shortly removed I think and you then saw things like revenge spawn system creeping up and it eventually got really bad.

             

            I say have for the start of Ghosts and if the maps are like MW2/BO1 (basically any CoD from BO1 downwards to MW) then I say remove the spawn delay as I'll know the spawn system will be better.

             

            However if its like BO2 then we need it because without it, we have chaotic spawns and even worse revenge spawn.

             

            Map design for certain plays a role... but ever since MW2, the algorithm for deciding on a safe spawn point has included "revenge" as a component. Combine this with matchbox sized maps and you have the wonky system that hindered MW3 and plagues BO2.

             

            Also, BO2 map design does not allow for easy map control (and by result, spawn control) even when working with a 6 man, communicating team. A by product, in my opinion, of designing maps to be played well with 4 man teams. You have 33% fewer players... which means you also have 33% more space per player. The maps become too cluttered.

             

            Cheers.

             

            That's what I'm saying though, if map design isn't good then the spawns would suffer and as a compensation, spawn delay is needed. Even if they removed the revenge spawn elements or reduced them, if bad map design plays again like we've seen from BO2 then the spawn delay would be essential to avoid horrible spawning.

             

            In MW3 one thing that saved HC from experiancing so many problems as the core community did was spawn delay, you watch core videos of TDM and then watch HC videos of TDM, the spawn issues are much less and I put that down to the spawn delay.

             

            I guess the question is: Would you rather have a reasonable spawn system which would incorporate a spawn delay? or would you rather have chaotic spawns and a faster game without it?

             

            Another point about the pace of HC. HC is unique in the sense that it can be fast paced or slow and it all really depends on the players in that lobby. I've went into HC TDMs on MW3 and they've lasted 4 minutes whereas I've went into HC lobbies and they've lasted the full 10 mins.

             

            Plus one more thing to consider is, the spawn delay in HC makes HC what it is. HC is designed to be slightly more realistic, yet also more methodical.

             

            I'm an HC player, too. Since MW3, I've played mostly HC KC. Once you get used to not having a spawn delay in KC you find it irritating in TDM. It's annoying to sit in the dead room for up to 15 seconds.

             

            A spawn delay helps with chaotic spawns when the team is composed of randoms or greenies. But a party will control spawns with/without a delay. I think HC players tend to communicate more and work more as a team (even when not in a party) because the mode is less forgiving. TBH, no spawn delay allows a good team to even better control the map.

             

            I think we agree revenge as part of the spawn algorithm is an issue. We also agree map design plays a big part, too.

             

            I want a spawn system that excludes revenge in it's algorithm without a spawn delay on maps which aren't corridor driven clusterbleeps.

             

            I just prefer not having to wait around to respawn.

  • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
    Adam1234567893

    The spawn delay was just a bad choice imo I think to make hardcore more tactical everyone should have a number of lives for all game modes that involve kills for instance if TDM is 75 points to win make it where everyone has 13 lives and if someone leaves the person that joins either waits or plays if the player who left had lives. And for KC they could have 17 lives basically making where people have to be more careful or they die or they could just make it a simple 10 lives for everyone. As for revenge spawn issues they could make Hardcore use an avoidance spawn system basically spawning players away or out of the sight of the enemy making it even more tactical. The reason why I dislike spawn delay is because it prevents spawn exploiters from being over run with enemies making spawn control way too easy and an exploitable spawn fest causing people to get bored and leave or it made noobs hate the game mode because they couldn't take things slow.

    • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
      Project-VAG-DANO

      That wouldnt work, as soon as someone runs out of lives they'll just quit the game.

       

      Like others have said, the spawns need a complete overhaul, remove the need for revenge spawning, improve map design to allow for better spawn locations etc.

    • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
      scotland-rules

      Adam1234567893 wrote:

       

      The spawn delay was just a bad choice imo I think to make hardcore more tactical everyone should have a number of lives for all game modes that involve kills for instance if TDM is 75 points to win make it where everyone has 13 lives and if someone leaves the person that joins either waits or plays if the player who left had lives. And for KC they could have 17 lives basically making where people have to be more careful or they die or they could just make it a simple 10 lives for everyone. As for revenge spawn issues they could make Hardcore use an avoidance spawn system basically spawning players away or out of the sight of the enemy making it even more tactical. The reason why I dislike spawn delay is because it prevents spawn exploiters from being over run with enemies making spawn control way too easy and an exploitable spawn fest causing people to get bored and leave or it made noobs hate the game mode because they couldn't take things slow.

       

      Simply that wouldn't work and would actually damage the HC community.

  • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
    NoLifeKing29

    Removing the spawn timer from HCTDM was just another way Treyarch shafted the HC community in BO2. They didn't ask if we wanted it removed, they didn't care when people asked for it to be returned, they just did nothing. I personally hate spawn timers, and hated the launch list for HC BO2, because they all had spawn timers. But removing it all together without seeking player input was just stupid. HCKC should remain without a spawn timer, and HCTDM should have it, albeit shorter.

    • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
      rlbl

      Sometimes asking the community can be a very bad idea (how many goofy suggestions do we see all the time).

       

      The question I wonder is: "How did removing affect the players in terms of popularity".

       

      If there was a huge outcry and the players dwindled, then ya put it back.

       

      If the numbers of HCTDM players grew and the "average" desire is to keep it out, then keep it out.

       

      NoLifeKing29 wrote:

       

      They didn't ask if we wanted it removed, they didn't care when people asked for it to be returned, they just did nothing.

       

      Are you sure about this? From what I remember (MW3) HCTDM clan ops were hated because of the spawn delays.  You could be right though...

    • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
      maccabi

      NoLifeKing29 wrote:

       

      Removing the spawn timer from HCTDM was just another way Treyarch shafted the HC community in BO2. They didn't ask if we wanted it removed, they didn't care when people asked for it to be returned, they just did nothing. I personally hate spawn timers, and hated the launch list for HC BO2, because they all had spawn timers. But removing it all together without seeking player input was just stupid. HCKC should remain without a spawn timer, and HCTDM should have it, albeit shorter.

      actually they did on twitter and end result was loads of screaming on the forums no player drop and the numbers in hctdm went up

  • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
    scotland-rules

    Exactly, they just made an announcement saying they were removing it. I remember.....

     

    Posting an announcement on twitter isn't asking that's telling.....

  • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
    scotland-rules

    The player count went up because round about that time HC Dom was released.

     

    HC Dom was very highly requested.

  • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
    scotland-rules

    I just fail to see in my honest opinion that numbers rose noticeably because the spawn time was removed for HC TDM. Are you seriously telling me 1000s of people wouldn't play HC because of spawn timer in it?

     

    HC was still incredibly fast paced with spawn timer on due to the small maps.

     

    I think more people flocked into HC because you had so much bull crap happening on core. 

  • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM

    You are in charge of a VTOL warship.  You can see a spawn point.  Is it your fault only a few were easy targets?  You prepped up and earned your kills and you get simple few?

     

    What if they spawned off radar and you got a minute or two more?  In other words, there is no red diamond over them for two seconds?

     

    What if your camping around a spawn point and a chopper crashes in?  You know this chopper has some goods, but you can't seem to let up on gunning down?

     

    The devs need to be in charge of a match and start spanking bad behavior.  You could be a really good shot, ..at killing spawns.  If your spawn totals rack up, I think you should wear that.  I think your badge should reflect what you do, and I think you should wear a spawn slaughter in recognition of your kills.

    • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM

      I mowed down 5 in a spawn= I get to wear what I did

    • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
      scotland-rules

      Rngr1 wrote:

       

      You are in charge of a VTOL warship.  You can see a spawn point.  Is it your fault only a few were easy targets?  You prepped up and earned your kills and you get simple few?

       

      What if they spawned off radar and you got a minute or two more?  In other words, there is no red diamond over them for two seconds?

       

      What if your camping around a spawn point and a chopper crashes in?  You know this chopper has some goods, but you can't seem to let up on gunning down?

       

      The devs need to be in charge of a match and start spanking bad behavior.  You could be a really good shot, ..at killing spawns.  If your spawn totals rack up, I think you should wear that.  I think your badge should reflect what you do, and I think you should wear a spawn slaughter in recognition of your kills.

      Rngr1 wrote:

       

      You are in charge of a VTOL warship.  You can see a spawn point.  Is it your fault only a few were easy targets?  You prepped up and earned your kills and you get simple few?

       

      What if they spawned off radar and you got a minute or two more?  In other words, there is no red diamond over them for two seconds?

       

      What if your camping around a spawn point and a chopper crashes in?  You know this chopper has some goods, but you can't seem to let up on gunning down?

       

      The devs need to be in charge of a match and start spanking bad behavior.  You could be a really good shot, ..at killing spawns.  If your spawn totals rack up, I think you should wear that.  I think your badge should reflect what you do, and I think you should wear a spawn slaughter in recognition of your kills.

       

      Sorry but I don't quite understand what this exactly has to do with adding in a spawn delay to HC.

  • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
    Mikeyvelli

    Been playing HCTDM the whole time I played Black Ops 2.  Racked up almost a month's worth if in game playing time.  I really hope IW doesn't cater to your idea of bringing the spawn delays back just to avoid those silly revenge spawns.  It would suck to sit and do nothing for 3 to 12 seconds every time you die.  HCTDM on black ops 2 stopped becoming that campfest filled game that it became in MW3.  I like to die, run out and run and gun instantly, not sit there for 3 seconds planning for which corner I'm going to sit at.  Waiting to spawn leads to a slower paced game which promotes camping.  Sorry but I don't want to revert HCTDM back to its campfest filled MW3 days.

    • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
      scotland-rules

      Mikeyvelli wrote:

       

      Been playing HCTDM the whole time I played Black Ops 2.  Racked up almost a month's worth if in game playing time.  I really hope IW doesn't cater to your idea of bringing the spawn delays back just to avoid those silly revenge spawns.  It would suck to sit and do nothing for 3 to 12 seconds every time you die.  HCTDM on black ops 2 stopped becoming that campfest filled game that it became in MW3.  I like to die, run out and run and gun instantly, not sit there for 3 seconds planning for which corner I'm going to sit at.  Waiting to spawn leads to a slower paced game which promotes camping.  Sorry but I don't want to revert HCTDM back to its campfest filled MW3 days.

       

       

      Right so you're happy with enemy spawning so close to you and killing you 3 seconds after you spawn like you do now in Crap Ops 2?

       

      I'm not suggesting we have a 15 second spawn limit. I'm suggesting a 3-5 second spawn delay which gives the game enough time to calculate your spawn as well as give you time to change your class.

       

      Hardcore was actually quite fast in MW3 and I was always hitting in about 90% games the score limit, sure it was slightly slower paced than Core but hardcore always has been slower paced. I think BO2 was actually mad, beyond fast paced due to the revenge spawn system.

       

      Hardcore has always been more methodical and more throughout and actually requires a degree of thought.

       

      HC doesn't promote camping, players choose to camp.

  • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
    Mikeyvelli

    Crap Ops 2 really?  Maybe now we know why you hate HCTDM in black ops 2 so much is because you simple hate the game in general.  Decent players will also know where to get that revenge kill instead of running out and being killed by the same person 3 seconds in.

    • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
      scotland-rules

      Mikeyvelli wrote:

       

      Crap Ops 2 really?  Maybe now we know why you hate HCTDM in black ops 2 so much is because you simple hate the game in general.  Decent players will also know where to get that revenge kill instead of running out and being killed by the same person 3 seconds in.

       

      It wasn't completely crap and I didn't mind it.

       

      I actually like HC TDM, just not the crazy-like nature that it has become. The revenge spawn system needs to be either removed or the delay needs to come back. Surely you are capable of waiting something like 5 seconds? Couple that with horrific map design (worst in CoD history) and you've got a pretty crap game in terms of diversity.

       

      All HC TDM in BO2 was run and gun like a headless chicken and it became boring after 3 games.

  • Re: I hope the spawn delay is back for Hardcore TDM
    trialstardragon

    I am of mixed feelings with this. I dont think there should be a forced spawn delay but an optional one. allow the plays to wait up to 3 seconds if they wish or press a to spawn right away if they wish. That way players that want the time to change loadouts after dieing could. And those that wanted to get back to the action right away could. But definitely remove the revenge spawn system where it tries to spawn you near the person that last killed you.