39 Replies Latest reply: Feb 2, 2012 5:36 PM by Smit2012 RSS

Ricochet? No Way!

Cable99
So Vahn is talking to us about #morehardcoregamemodes And I'm personally thrilled.
HOWEVER-a few people have voiced the idea that it would be good to bring back MW2's "ricochet" feature in the new HC OBJ modes.
Rather than clutter the HC OBJ thread up with this argument I brought it here.
I figure it's  not as important to Playstation as they have far less experience with the game-after all, they spent a lot of time unable to play it. 

My take is-NO. HELL, NO! Take out the team killing penalty as it stands and people won't play as carefully. And it will just be CORE with faster kill rates. Look, I got kicked last night for some stupid shots-and I deserved it. The idea of the TK is that you have to play smart.

People say the kill streaks "can't be used" because of the team killing kick out threat.
BS. I run UAV/Napalm/Mortars regularly. Like anything else in life, you just have to learn how to make it happen.

As for ricochet-remember, if you goof a flash/concussion/gas grenade (much easier to do than blowing a kill streak placement) you suffer the full effects of the grenade even if your teammate would have only been peripherally touched by it. I run gas, and would spend a LOT of time dead with ricochet-my teammates often charge right through it. 

I've heard that TKs on CTF are a problem. No, they aren't. The idea is to win. If your teammate shoots you to steal your flag cap-    . Big deal. Gas them/flash them if it makes you feel better but its objective-you're there to win. I played a round last night with no caps but I still did well by defending the carrier. That was my role. Incidentally, we won.

So no ricochet. Just play smarter-that's the point of hardcore objective modes.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Indeed...

    Never really cared for Ricochet anyway.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    ghosthound
    To be honest I prefer 'ricochet' - nobody can ever teamkill you 1 off a Blackbird or Chopper Gunner...just so they can steal your gold weapon.   
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Cable99

    GhostHound wrote:

     

    To be honest I prefer 'ricochet' - nobody can ever teamkill you 1 off a Blackbird or Chopper Gunner...just so they can steal your gold weapon.



    I've never seen this happen.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    ghosthound

    Cable 99 wrote:

     

    GhostHound wrote:

     

    To be honest I prefer 'ricochet' - nobody can ever teamkill you 1 off a Blackbird or Chopper Gunner...just so they can steal your gold weapon.



    I've never seen this happen.



    It happens to me repeatedly.  

    Don't get me wrong 'ricochet' isn't perfect, but at least my deaths are in my hands so to speak. 
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    rankismet

    GhostHound wrote:

     

    To be honest I prefer 'ricochet' - nobody can ever teamkill you 1 off a Blackbird or Chopper Gunner...just so they can steal your gold weapon.   



    I've been killed for my gold weapon... but there are far too many drawbacks to ricochet.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    IMO I wish killstreaks didnt add to getting kicked...

    My friend (yes indeed a friend, not me being my "friend") runs B52's, which is his choice...anyway, he is constantly getting kicked when teammates spawn in the path of his B52...which isnt his fault.  Another reason being randoms that are partied up together can stand under your care package or run into your fire to get you kicked...not to mention people that TK after you steal a kill they feel they should have had, to get your gold gun, or any other odd reason. 

    I know you will say play with a party, and I normally do...but there are random times I get on and just want to play solo or dont have friends on.  I shouldnt be penalized because people want to be dicks online.  If Ricochet was put into the game but didnt effect you with tac nades would anyone have a problem with that?  Sort of like a half and half...that way if people wanted to TK they wouldnt hurt the team but rather themselves and if you did throw a tac nade in a room with a teammate or in front of it you wouldnt be effected?  Just a thought...
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Cable99

    GhostHound wrote:

     

    Cable 99 wrote:

     

    GhostHound wrote:

     

    To be honest I prefer 'ricochet' - nobody can ever teamkill you 1 off a Blackbird or Chopper Gunner...just so they can steal your gold weapon.



    I've never seen this happen.



    It happens to me repeatedly.  

    Don't get me wrong 'ricochet' isn't perfect, but at least my deaths are in my hands so to speak. 



    Only problem is I've only got two hands. Need more to handle all the gas and flash-related deaths....
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    ghosthound

    RAN Kismet wrote:

     

    GhostHound wrote:

     

    To be honest I prefer 'ricochet' - nobody can ever teamkill you 1 off a Blackbird or Chopper Gunner...just so they can steal your gold weapon.   



    I've been killed for my gold weapon... but there are far too many drawbacks to ricochet.



    Such as what?

    Having team mates run into your Napalm or Rolling Thunder, even though you explicitly told them where you were putting it but they run there anyway, happens already.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    I agree, I'm still a noob (my k/d is below 1 but improving steadily) but I've got a chopper gunner in HC TDM and had no TK's. As long as you're careful (as previously mentioned) you should be fine.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    ghosthound

    bowtieftw wrote:

     

    I agree, I'm still a noob (my k/d is below 1 but improving steadily) but I've got a chopper gunner in HC TDM and had no TK's. As long as you're careful (as previously mentioned) you should be fine.



    Try doing that in HC CTF or HQ where the teams are closer together.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    greencoffin72
    NO RICOCHET!!


  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Cable99

    GhostHound wrote:

     

    bowtieftw wrote:

     

    I agree, I'm still a noob (my k/d is below 1 but improving steadily) but I've got a chopper gunner in HC TDM and had no TK's. As long as you're careful (as previously mentioned) you should be fine.



    Try doing that in HC CTF or HQ where the teams are closer together.



    I do it all the time.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    ghosthound

    Cable 99 wrote:

     

    GhostHound wrote:

     

    bowtieftw wrote:

     

    I agree, I'm still a noob (my k/d is below 1 but improving steadily) but I've got a chopper gunner in HC TDM and had no TK's. As long as you're careful (as previously mentioned) you should be fine.



    Try doing that in HC CTF or HQ where the teams are closer together.



    I do it all the time.



    To be honest getting kicked from teamkilling using a killstreak doesn't bother me that much - I'm normally host so it only ever adds 1 more death to my score [no matter how many times you kill your team mates  ] & if I'm not host, then I'm usually on a damn good score when it happens.

    BUT getting teamkilled for my gold weapons or care package in S&D is really getting beyond a joke.

    'Ricochet' means nobody can ever team kill me EVER AGAIN.
    • Re: Ricochet? No Way!

      Ive never been team killed for my gear.  Who gives a crap about a gold weapon.  In fact I might shoot you just for using one.  I stopped playing HC because of the Ricochet.  There are to many idiots in the game and a good old team kill is sometimes required to keep people in line.  Examples   You are setting up to snipe and a noob thinks it's funny to stand infront of you. You toss a gernade into a room and a teamate decides to run in after it.  You are firing at an enemy and a teamate decides to step into you line of fire even though he/she can see the bullets line.  

      Ricochet only helps the incompetent and increases chaos.Except in HS&D  Some seem to like it.  That's fine with me.  Just give us more game mode options that don't have it.

  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!

    GhostHound wrote:

     

    bowtieftw wrote:

     

    I agree, I'm still a noob (my k/d is below 1 but improving steadily) but I've got a chopper gunner in HC TDM and had no TK's. As long as you're careful (as previously mentioned) you should be fine.



    Try doing that in HC CTF or HQ where the teams are closer together.



    I usually play HC CTF and have only been booted a grand total of one time ( well twice but the second was on purpose...let's just say he deserved it and he was host)-and I play about 3/4 of the time with randoms. One of the biggest strong points in HC ,in my opinion, is that you have to exercise target descretion and communicate with team mates.
    In fact I kinda like the intensity of having to two strikes against me and having to up my game to not get booted( not that I would intentionally get 2 TK's, except in that one case mentioned above)
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    IDX Rider
    I think they should bring it back for HCTDM personally. But I don't think it should take away the getting kicked from the game punishment though but it was be better for them to die as well if a teammate kills you just to get your care package or something. But if not I wouldn't care too much. I play core all the time anyways so I know where I'll be if it doesn't happen.

    No harm no foul.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    ghosthound
    So far nobody has stated why 'Ricochet' is less preferable to the system currently in use. 
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Now I'm not a HC player, so my opinion here should be taken very lightly, if considered at all.


    When dealing with a game mode like Dom, there are times when you HAVE to try and defend a flag at all costs, even if that means spamming your weapon or hurling grenades.  There are many cases where you just don't have time to check for teammates before you try to defend the point.

    I have memories from playing HC War in WaW a few times.  I got kicked several times because teammates seemed to be oblivious to the fact I was firing my weapon to clear enemies out of the flag area.  They would just rush ahead and jump through my line of fire in an attempt to rush to the flag.  I wasn't just carelessly spraying, but rather shooting at enemies that were also trying to rush.

    So when you have situations like that, what is the best option?  I think I would prefer Ricochet so I wouldn't get kicked and take a loss.  However, I also would hate to die just because someone is being careless and runs in front of me, especially when I am on a killstreak.

    I think the best option might be to have more and more extensive spawn delays.  That might hurt the team if someone gets a spawn delay of 2 minutes for being an idiot, but then again it's no worse that someone getting kicked.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    The 2 things that make HardCore hardcore are:

    1. Low health that does not regenerate.

    2. Friendly fire.

    Take away friendly fire & HardCore is softened by half.

    (I know HardCore also removes the mini-map/radar, but with spy planes & blackbirds up so much of the time in HC, I almost don't notice the difference. Suppressors & Ghost Pro are so common that they all but render the mini-map/radar useless anyway.)

    I suspect that ricochet would dramatically change killstreak usage in HC since players would not risk team-killing by haphazardly bathing the map in napalm strikes & the like. I bet we'd see a lot more explosive spam in HC if friendly fire was removed - which would just devolve HC into the chaotic every-man-for-himself (even in team-based objective modes) mess that Core often seems to be.

    I think the risk of team-killing (along with being kicked out for it) helps elevate the level of play & encourage better teamwork.

  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!

    GhostHound wrote:

     

    So far nobody has stated why 'Ricochet' is less preferable to the system currently in use. 



    I did, in the other thread;)


    Kambo_says wrote:

     

    GhostHound wrote:

     

    Kambo_says wrote:

     


    Oh and please, please do NOT disable TK'ing. In any gamemode. It's maybe the primary element forcing people to WORK TOGETHER and use callouts and a more tactical approach.



    How does Teamkilling ever lead to increased teamwork? 



    Did you even understand what i meant?

    Probably my fault, my english isn't perfect as I do not have it as my native tongue (if that's the expression). Let's blame the language barrier.

    What I tried to say, and will try to say again is: When you have friendly fire ON, you ALWAYS gotta know where your boys are when you lob a grenade over a wall/ towards an objective. If you hear "Losing B" and you know there's no one there (teammates), you also know it is safe to throw a grenade. In Core, tubeing is a good and popular way to defend an objective, cuz it can "remove" several enemies at once making it harder for them to cap. If you have a friendly in there trying to kill these guys, you'd (in core) let the tubes fly. In HC? 3TK and you're out. AS IT SHOULD BE, imho.

    Therefore you need to work together through both gameplay, callouts and approach to get a victory.

    Did I make myself clear this time around? I hope so.

    Sincerely

    The Norwegian Troll
    Kambo


  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Cable99

    ISankYourBattleship wrote:

     

    Now I'm not a HC player, so my opinion here should be taken very lightly, if considered at all.


    When dealing with a game mode like Dom, there are times when you HAVE to try and defend a flag at all costs, even if that means spamming your weapon or hurling grenades.  There are many cases where you just don't have time to check for teammates before you try to defend the point.

    I have memories from playing HC War in WaW a few times.  I got kicked several times because teammates seemed to be oblivious to the fact I was firing my weapon to clear enemies out of the flag area.  They would just rush ahead and jump through my line of fire in an attempt to rush to the flag.  I wasn't just carelessly spraying, but rather shooting at enemies that were also trying to rush.

    So when you have situations like that, what is the best option?  I think I would prefer Ricochet so I wouldn't get kicked and take a loss.  However, I also would hate to die just because someone is being careless and runs in front of me, especially when I am on a killstreak.

    I think the best option might be to have more and more extensive spawn delays.  That might hurt the team if someone gets a spawn delay of 2 minutes for being an idiot, but then again it's no worse that someone getting kicked.



    Highlighted core of problem. Discretion, as Okie said, is the key. They just need to play smarter.

    And I posted in OP why Ricochet is a negative, Ghosthound. And Kambo touched on it in Vahn's thread.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    greencoffin72
    A small addition - Take a flash for instance, if you are not careful, chucking a flash into an area with teammates causes everyone to be blinded, not just you.  This adds to the teammate aspect; you play as a team, win/lose as a team.  Unless you're in FFA, all matches are team-oriented.

    The HC gameplay is perfect the way it is now, ricochet just doesn't work.  Adding to your own deaths doesn't benefit the team at all.  At least with a 3 TK kick, your team has the opportunity to make up the slack by adding a new player.  What happens when you get the guy who never gets kicked but goes 0-35 because he's killing himself/herself.  How is that player contributing to the team?

    How is that benefiting the overall gaming experience?
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!

    greencoffin72 wrote:

     

    A small addition - Take a flash for instance, if you are not careful, chucking a flash into an area with teammates causes everyone to be blinded, not just you.  This adds to the teammate aspect; you play as a team, win/lose as a team.  Unless you're in FFA, all matches are team-oriented.

    The HC gameplay is perfect the way it is now, ricochet just doesn't work.  Adding to your own deaths doesn't benefit the team at all.  At least with a 3 TK kick, your team has the opportunity to make up the slack by adding a new player.  What happens when you get the guy who never gets kicked but goes 0-35 because he's killing himself/herself.  How is that player contributing to the team?

    How is that benefiting the overall gaming experience?



    VERY good point!
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    maccabi
    only reason i bought it up in the first place was i sort of got the impression vahn was curious to see what it would play like and or wanted to try it out..

    secondly it would stop idiots tkings for flag captures in ctf and the obvious cp stealing being a total douche in s&d

    hence i suggested it only for hc flag mode


    tbh not bothered if its in or not.. i aim with care and always run low value cps
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!

    Maccabi wrote:

     

    only reason i bought it up in the first place was i sort of got the impression vahn was curious to see what it would play like and or wanted to try it out..

    secondly it would stop idiots tkings for flag captures in ctf and the obvious cp stealing being a total douche in s&d

    hence i suggested it only for hc flag mode


    tbh not bothered if its in or not.. i aim with care and always run low value cps



    Altho it may seem like i'm accusing you of bringing this up, that is not the case. I just really hate riccochet and will fight it till i meat St. Peter or whatever they call him....
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    maccabi

    Kambo_says wrote:

     

    Maccabi wrote:

     

    only reason i bought it up in the first place was i sort of got the impression vahn was curious to see what it would play like and or wanted to try it out..

    secondly it would stop idiots tkings for flag captures in ctf and the obvious cp stealing being a total douche in s&d

    hence i suggested it only for hc flag mode


    tbh not bothered if its in or not.. i aim with care and always run low value cps



    Altho it may seem like i'm accusing you of bringing this up, that is not the case. I just really hate riccochet and will fight it till i meat St. Peter or whatever they call him....



    nah its fine i think it was me who bought it up,anyways i only want it in.as i play with you on the same team...
    oh he went there.....
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    A Ninjakitty
    Ricochet is a bonus in HC SnD, that's it. Nothing else needs it. But I think it's not a bad idea for CTF.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Cable99

    A Ninjakitty wrote:

     

    Ricochet is a bonus in HC SnD, that's it. Nothing else needs it. But I think it's not a bad idea for CTF.



    In CTF I get the pleasure of giving my buddies smack when they shoot the flag carrier and take a big pts hit.
    And I've had games where a team kill right at the end accidentally changed who won/lost. Very exciting finishes, those were.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Cable99
    BUMP
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Pro Like Jesus
    Honestly Team killing should be either gone or richochet rules enabled. I don't find it fair to see people run into napalm, run under B52's jump under carepackages or hop on grenades to get people kicked. yes I have had this happen to me. I have also seen people do it to others. Its completely unfair and not cool in my opinion.

    I really don't see why anyone would be against richochet rules, unless they are purposefully team killing.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Cable99

    Pro Like Jesus wrote:

     

    Honestly Team killing should be either gone or richochet rules enabled. I don't find it fair to see people run into napalm, run under B52's jump under carepackages or hop on grenades to get people kicked. yes I have had this happen to me. I have also seen people do it to others. Its completely unfair and not cool in my opinion.

    I really don't see why anyone would be against richochet rules, unless they are purposefully team killing.



    Perhaps if you read my original post you would understand the other side of the question....
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Pro Like Jesus

    Cable 99 wrote:

     

    Pro Like Jesus wrote:

     

    Honestly Team killing should be either gone or richochet rules enabled. I don't find it fair to see people run into napalm, run under B52's jump under carepackages or hop on grenades to get people kicked. yes I have had this happen to me. I have also seen people do it to others. Its completely unfair and not cool in my opinion.

    I really don't see why anyone would be against richochet rules, unless they are purposefully team killing.



    Perhaps if you read my original post you would understand the other side of the question....




    I have read your OP, Three times actually. You explained why you want it to be similar rules as to what they are. You said that Team Killing forces you to play smarter, by which I assume you mean, Killstreak placements, Grenades, Shooting through walls? Things of that nature, Well I honestly think I'd play even smarter if I ran the risk of killing myself.

    You also gave the example of you would spend most of the time dead because you use gas and your teamates run through it. Well maybe your teamates will learn to not run through the gas that you have thrown. unless you play solo alot.

    People are still going to be ass holes and run under your napalm to kill you or  run under your carepackages, I wish they would change that to how they did it in core, if the package falls on you it just shifts away.

    Sadly there is not much you can do about killstreaks other than somehow make your team immune to the fire so they won't purposefully try and kill you, or do what they do now and get you kicked from the game. I don't use these killstreaks or carepackages any more because of my experiences with players who play with the intent to get you kicked.

    So please next time, don't assume I have not read the OP.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Cable99
    The idea behind kick vs ricochet effects is simple. Kick can be easily avoided most of the time-even with suicidal greenies on your team. Ricochet allows you to be penalized for mis-tossing a grenade by one inch. That's a fierce penalty by comparison. Also, with the "kick" option you survive "little" mistakes. I've put bullets into friends without killing them. Ricochet could make that a suicidal move. Example-I jump out of a window and tag a teammate while trying to take down an enemy sniper. It ricochets and, combined with the jump damage, kills me. Or-in kick mode I live, my buddy lives and we have the combined opportunity to advance our team score a little further.

    Plus the precision throwing of flash bangs/concussions doesn't really exist. As pointed out, a situation where a teammate catches the edge of the effect in ricochet gives you the full flash. In TK mode, no real harm is done. I took flashbang type grenades off the menu in MW2 for this exact reason-I just stopped using them. Too unpredictable.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Apollodarkblade
    I think in certain situations if the person runs into your killstreak or what happens to me a lot runs into my bullet path you should be able to party vote that person out of the match or have it where if the person who is killed by friendly fire(by more than one person to prevent someone from killing someone they don't like over and over to get them booted) a certain amount of time is booted instead of the killers. No matter what they input people will abuse it or complain about it.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Cable99

    Apollodarkblade wrote:

     

    I think in certain situations if the person runs into your killstreak or what happens to me a lot runs into my bullet path you should be able to party vote that person out of the match or have it where if the person who is killed by friendly fire(by more than one person to prevent someone from killing someone they don't like over and over to get them booted) a certain amount of time is booted instead of the killers. No matter what they input people will abuse it or complain about it.



    Your last sentence carries much truth. The Force is strong with this one. 
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Pro Like Jesus
    Then evidently, we need to change the parameters of richochet. I honestly don't like the fact of being killed so someone can take a care package. I know I won't be able to persuade you, nor will you be able to persuade me, I just think your argument of playing smart and how you advocate playing smarter in your OP holds little water.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Cable99

    Pro Like Jesus wrote:

     

    Then evidently, we need to change the parameters of richochet. I honestly don't like the fact of being killed so someone can take a care package. I know I won't be able to persuade you, nor will you be able to persuade me, I just think your argument of playing smart and how you advocate playing smarter in your OP holds little water.



    I've been ejected from one game in 2-3 weeks, I believe. No, wait, 2. Last night for absolute stupidity on my part and a Nuketown game for using an indiscreet noob tube.
    Considering the number of games I've played in that time-that's virtually a non-existent %. I played a lot of HQ ricochet in MW2. It bit.
    C'est la vie. Treyarch took a player poll pre-release. The community voted TKs over Ricochet.
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Nobody mentioning 'shared' damage?

    COD2 :O
  • Re: Ricochet? No Way!
    Pro Like Jesus

    Cable 99 wrote:

     

    Pro Like Jesus wrote:

     

    Then evidently, we need to change the parameters of richochet. I honestly don't like the fact of being killed so someone can take a care package. I know I won't be able to persuade you, nor will you be able to persuade me, I just think your argument of playing smart and how you advocate playing smarter in your OP holds little water.



    I've been ejected from one game in 2-3 weeks, I believe. No, wait, 2. Last night for absolute stupidity on my part and a Nuketown game for using an indiscreet noob tube.
    Considering the number of games I've played in that time-that's virtually a non-existent %. I played a lot of HQ ricochet in MW2. It bit.
    C'est la vie. Treyarch took a player poll pre-release. The community voted TKs over Ricochet.



    I don't get kicked quite often myself. I take almost all the precautions to ensure this. I do however see alot of people get kicked because someone wanted to jump under care packages and I have seen teammates run into fire deliberately. I'm not saying everything in either system is perfect because I know its not. I would honestly like to see someone to not get kicked because of killstreaks.