10 Replies Latest reply: Nov 29, 2012 11:28 PM by Harv72 RSS

Why SMGs are not really overpowered

Harv72

I've gotten tired of typing this over and over in multiple threads, so I thought I'd just type it once here.

 

SMGs are not nearly as powerful as many people think they are.  There, bold statement made in bold type...go me.

 

It's understandable why so many feel they are the "hands down best weapons" in BO2.  For starters, the smaller, more cluttered maps tend to create more short-range gunfights than we're used to, particularly now when a lot of players are still learning them.  SMGs should win short-range gunfights against anything but a shotgun--that's what they're designed for.  So if your AR or LMG is consistently being outgunned at short range, that's intentional and correct.

 

Now, the next problem: a lot of people don't grasp just what "short range" means.  On U.S. Army M-16 qualification ranges, the closest target is 50 meters away.  On pistol ranges, targets are between 7 and 39 meters away.  Having qualified on both, I can tell you that if you miss a 50-meter pop-up target with an assault rifle, you're in the wrong line of work.  Missing any target with an M9 pistol requires quite a bit of effort.  "Short" range with a military-specs weapon is actually pretty long to most peoples' way of thinking...and that's not even getting into Marine Corps rilfe standards, which are considerably tougher.  So a lot of the gunfights that you think are "mid-range" are actually short-range, and a lot of the "long distance" ones are actually mid.

 

Next, you have an issue which has existed in most every CoD title to date and which has been fixed in BO2: previous games in this series made other weapon types too powerful in close-quarters engagements.  The result is that many players, particularly the really good ones who have tens of thousands of subscribers on You Tube (and start the in-game trends, whether intentionally or not), got used to using assault rifles and even LMGs like sub-machine guns.  You can't do that anymore, or at least, you can't do that and expect to live when you run into someone who actually does have an SMG in their hands.  The obvious example was the Famas in BO1: that assault rifle would outperform most SMGs from any range, even after it was nerfed.  In BO2, if you're carrying an AR or LMG then you have to use them as they're intended in order to succeed: tactical movement (shoot & scoot) with an AR, and mostly fixed-position mid- to long-range engagements with an LMG.  That doesn't mean camping...that just means that most of your shooting should be done from behind cover, and you shouldn't be barrelling across open areas or down hallways until you're sure that the path is clear.

 

Finally, we have lag.  We all know it's a problem in BO2, and we all hope that it gets fixed as quickly as possible.  Many of the other complaints about SMGs can be directly traced to this issue: you're not really getting one- or two-shotted by an SMG from 100 meters away, but on your end it feels like it because of the lag (compensation).  If you go back and replay the game in theater mode from that other player's perspective, you'll see that he's getting more hit markers before you go down than you actually felt in-game (or that you were damaged by something/someone else at the time & that might not have registered on your end, either).  One big advantage that SMGs offer is a much higher rate of fire than other weapons classes...so when the game is lagging in small amounts which you can't really see (but can feel), the high rate of fire on an SMG will often cancel it out at least partially.

 

If you are one of the people who enjoy watching CoD videos on You Tube, look up XBoxAhoy and watch some of his.  He does very good, very in-depth videos on each weapon in a given CoD game which explains more about damage dropoff with range, recoil, and how a particular gun is best used.  He only has one video up for BO2 so far (MTAR), but even watching his weapon guides for past Call of Duties will give you a better idea of how the guns are designed and how they work in the game.

 

As always, not intended to insult or belittle anyone or their complaints; only meant to help people better understand what's going on.

  • Re: Why SMGs are not really overpowered
    Harv72

    I know it's tl;dr for most people, but bump anyway.

    • Re: Why SMGs are not really overpowered

      I'm not from military, i'm a civilian IPSC shooter in sweden. I don't like bringing in realism in a cod/bf3 game since none of them are simulators. But in this game (over 100 hours clocked) I've noticed that SMG's have LESS recoil at full auto with x range compared to an AR. This is downright ludacris, everytime I die from a medium distance, I check their killcam. Always the same outcome, they shoot in full auto their recoil is barely noticeable. Good luck spraying with the SWAT/M8 vs an SMG, you will loose everytime.

       

      The longer barrel, the more weight you have, less recoil. My asault rifle should DOMINATE the SMG in terms of recoil regardless of distance.

       

      If you wan't a better example:

       

      At 30meters, SMG can hipfire with laser, and they have less recoil and better chance of killing me vs my own AR.

       

      Yes SMG should tear you apart at close range. I don't mind getting slaughtered in close range. But I do mind getting full auto to death from an SMG, when there's barely any recoil. Most of the fights I have it doesn't matter the range, they can full auto me with barely any recoil, I have to burst my SWAT otherwise my recoil is HIGHER than the actual SMG.....

       

      "missing any target with an M9 pistol requires a bit of effort"

       

      Please explain what you mean by this. A beretta 92fs is no more better than any other weapon system. It all comes down to the actual shooter. You guys fire with 2 weapons, I bullseye shoot a Glock/Sig with one hand at 25 meters. I use of course 2 hands in IPSC, and even at close target it's hard to get a good grouping if you're on the clock.

       

      Thanks for sharing your military experience, was a very interesting reading.

      • Re: Why SMGs are not really overpowered
        Harv72

        I only had one pistol experience while I was in the military (they aren't standard issue to regular U.S. soldiers), and that was just firing off all the left-over rounds after my platoon had to run the pistol qualification range for officers and senior NCOs.  At those distances & with fixed (not pop-up) targets, I had to literally try to miss with the 9mm pistol.  I was shooting one-handed, left-handed, sideways, quick-drawing...whatever, they're just insanely accurate pistols.  That said, I had one 1SG come through my lane who couldn't hit the broad side of a planet with it, so maybe it's user-dependant.

         

        As far as the SMG recoil in-game goes, I've gone on record before saying that it needs to be raised a bit at range.  But when you're looking at those killcams, you also have to consider whether your opponent was feathering his stick to account for the recoil and/or whether he had the long barrel attachment on his gun.  In my experience I can usually win mid-range enagements vs. SMGs when I'm carrying an assault rifle, and when I'm using an SMG I generally lose those fights (although I usually lose while trying to evade it).

         

        I did have the opportunity to fire an SMG during my service as well, and it was...interesting.  We drew detail to run a familiarization range with the old M3 "Grease Gun", and you're dead on about the recoil.  This particular model was designed to be fired from the hip, and was fairly controllable once you got used to the kick and learned to fire short bursts, but the first time anyone pulled the trigger it was a jolt (one guy almost took his own head off, literally).

  • Re: Why SMGs are not really overpowered

    there was no need for the giant rant. it simple. the makers need to bloody wake up and realise that the SMG's have ruined the game and need to be changed straight away. They are so overpowered and now are long range with supreme accuracy. just ridiculous. and the snipers are instant and you don't even have to aim properly to get the hit.

     

    I want to slap the makers in the face and shout. DID YOU NOT TEST THE GAME BY USERS?!

     

    if you run into anyone and everyone with an SMG, it's pritty much like what the point in even aiming. the call of duty name gets trashed more and more ever year. all they have to do it make it back like COD MW 4. then done.

    • Re: Why SMGs are not really overpowered

      Hell no. Cod 4 was god awful in terms of OP perks and don't get me started on FRAGX3. Cod 4's horrendous PERKS killed the game for me in the end.

       

       

       

      Juggernaut, martyrdom, last stand awful just awful perks

      • Re: Why SMGs are not really overpowered

        SMG+Laser Sight+Suppressor+Lightweight = complete domination of every other class setup in the game.

         

        Sure, you can go ahead and say all day long that SMGs arent overpowered, but the fact remains they are the best all around guns in the game. It is up to everyone's own decision as to whether the clearly most powerful gun is considered OP or not.

        • Re: Why SMGs are not really overpowered
          Harv72

          It's ironic that you're using a setup with the suppressor (which reduces effective range) to argue that SMGs are the best all-around guns.  Given a fair fight, or even one where I'm at a moderate disadvantage, I'm going to win most every long-distance battle vs. a suppressed SMG-user when I'm carrying an AR.

           

          Think about what constitutes "long" or "mid" range, and then think about how you're using your weapon it relation to its strengths and weaknesses at those ranges.  If you're rushing spawns or objectives with an AR, of course you're going to be killed by someone who's already there with an SMG.  But if you're pulling up short to scope out the area and setting up the gunfights to your advantage, your AR or LMG will come out on top nearly every time.  On the other hand, if you're trying to take down a moving target across the map with an SMG, or worse yet trying to outduel someone with an AR and cover, you're going to lose.

    • Re: Why SMGs are not really overpowered
      Harv72

      adamisgod1992 wrote:

       

      there was no need for the giant rant.

       

      It wasn't a rant, really, but obviously there was a need for it if you're still trying to argue that SMGs are overpowered.  Believe me, I am not a great FPS player, and I have no difficulty outgunning the SMGs with an AR or LMG, providing I can control the engagement.  If you're standing out in the open trying to hit a guy head-glitching 50 meters away, then yeah--you shoud be losing those fights.  But if you're the one with the cover & are prepared for the fight before it starts, you're going to win the vast majority of them.  Not camping...just situational awareness in knowing when & where your opponent is about to appear.

      • Re: Why SMGs are not really overpowered
        AMBQ

        The problem is that the smg beats out all other guns when conditions are equal to both players. And yes MW3 has this same problem with the MP7 being able to snipe from across the entire map with 1-2 shots. They need to implement a stronger range damage reduction to smgs cause they fire too fast to do comparable damage to ARs, and the vector is probably the most over powered since it has insane accuracy for a smg, same for the chicom.

        • Re: Why SMGs are not really overpowered
          Harv72

          I'd still prefer a slight overall increase to recoil on SMGs, which would have a pretty large effect on long-distance gunfights.  In short, I think they should still be useful at extreme ranges, just not as useful; shortening the drop-off point on their damage (or lowering the damage itself) would effectively make them completely worthless in certain scenarios.  With an increase to recoil a skilled player could still "snipe" with an SMG, but it would take longer to kill (giving a skilled player with an AR a bigger advantage at range without giving them carte blanche).