42 Replies Latest reply: Apr 5, 2013 2:29 PM by iivrruummii RSS

Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer

nicedrewishfela

I want to start off first by thanking Treyarch for bringing back Hardcore as it should be. The ricochet mess of MW3 just never felt the same. It seems balanced, you need to be accurate with your shots and deaths aren't instantaneous for the most part. It just feels like Hardcore again, and I am loving that. While I'd like to see more modes like Dom added, that is a discussion for another time.

 

But I do have concerns about the change to the HC Spawn Timer. For those who don't know... HC used to have a 15 second wave spawn timer, and for whatever reasons it has been completely removed from this game.

 

While the HC Spawn Timer could be frustrating at times, especially when you get a 15 second spawn towards the end of a heated match, it served a very necessary purpose, in my eyes and based on my experience as a long time Hardcore Gamer. With health being reduced to 30%,  with no regeneration, you have a very small window of opportunity. If you are hit, you can't simply hide and get better, you have to become more aware of your situation and use caution when engaging. The Spawn Timer allowed players a moment to breathe and establish themselves before the enemy came back after them.

 

The other aspect of the spawn timer is tactical advantage. A lot of the Hardcore game is getting the upper hand in certain situations. Maps such as Slums and Carrier have a great advantage from one spawn to the other. A team that is able to take a certain spawn has a much higher chance at victory than if they were to spawn on the other side. Part of getting that tactical advantage is flanking and attacking. The Spawn Timer allowed for these tactics, as when you took out an enemy they wouldn't come back immediately, allowing you to progress further into that spawn or area and continue to try to take the advantage. Without the timer, people are spawning immediately back in that spawn or area, disrupting so many of the tactics that are crucial to the HC game.

 

Secondly, the timer encouraged team communication. Effective players knew that you could cycle through teammates in either first or third person view and would use this to their team's advantage by calling out enemy positions. An effective player would also use it to their advantage by planning their route of attack based on their observations during the spawn time.

 

Last, the map size and spawning issues in this game absolutely call for the necessity of a Spawn Timer. It is actually a disadvantage for players to not have the time before spawning as the instant re-appearance means they will likely pop up in the sites of an attacker. This leads to way too many spawn kills/deaths. Perfect example... On Cargo today I ran out of the two story towards the red crates.I killed an enemy, flanked left around the crates edging the water, poked around the corner and ended up killing the same enemy, who had just spawned in. I backed behind the crate again to reload only to get killed by that same enemy, who had spawned behind me. The Spawn Timer prevents spawn kills for the most part.

 

I took some time and gave the no Spawn Timer thing a try. And while I have adapted, I believe HC is better with the Spawn Timer. It allows time to change classes, encourages team communication, allows for tactical gameplay, and helps fight spawn killing. Even if they had shortened the timer to 5-10 seconds and put it back in, it would make a tremendous difference, in my opinion.

 

So what do my fellow Hardcore Players think? Are there reasons I haven't thought of for why it needs to return? Do you disagree and feel its better without the Timer, and if so, why?

 

Asking respectfully that this not devolve into a Core v Hardcore flame fest, as that is off topic. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
    twistedsynns

    In a way I like the game the way it is now with no timer. It is very frustrating when you get killed , wait 15 seconds to respawn , then spawn in , get spawn killed and have to wait another 15 seconds to be spawn killed again. And sometimes this process is done several times on certain maps like Hijacked. So in a way I like it with no timer because even if I am spawn killed I respawn instantly w/o having to wait over and over.

    • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
      nicedrewishfela

      I see where you are coming from. It is nice to sometimes just get back into the action.

       

      But I have noticed that I get spawn killed a lot more now than I used to. That is my worry, that because of the lack of timer it makes it easier for folks to spawn kill, as people just appear instantly in front of them.

      • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
        twistedsynns

        I will agree with you there. I have been spawn killed alot more now that the timer is gone. But I have to say that i would rather be spawn killed a few times and get back into the fight than to be spawn killed and spend half the match watching the game from the sidelines.

      • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
        ion5150

        twistedsynns hit the nail right on the head.

         

        I have spent 1/3 or more of a game waiting to respawn back in, I would always get the full 15 secs.

         

        If one could guarantee that what twistedsynns stated would not occur, I'd be fine with it.

         

        But comming from the view point of one that has experienced the 15 second respawn hell for 6 titles, it's a welcomed change.

         

        I do not always agree with 3ARC but on this item and removal of last stand, they have done a very good thing in moving the game forward.

        • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
          nicedrewishfela

          Maybe it is just because I have played it for so long and am used to it, but it seems from a tactical standpoint to be a necessary part of HC.

           

          Wondering if even lowering it to 5 seconds would be an improvement. It is nice to get back into the action.. but what good is getting back into the action it keeps you from being able to play tactically and effectively? That is my bigger concern. I am doing well in this game, so its not a complaint so much as an observation. It just doesn't seem the same without the timer.

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
    jpwilson25

    nicedrewishfela -- you nailed it.

     

    At first I applauded the removal of the spawn timer.  Over the years it became something you grew used to but often hated, especially when it caused you to miss the last few seconds of a match.  Now that it's gone, I realize that it indeed had a purpose and HC isn't quite the same anymore.

     

    As mentioned by others, the main issue is that spawn killing has increased threefold.  And everyone is doing it because there's no way to avoid it due to erratic spawns.  I was playing Hijacked earlier and cleared out 3 enemies while moving from middle towards helipad -- I was hoping to circle around back and flank the other side.  That didn't happen because as soon as I rounded that back corner, the entire enemy team spawned in front of me.  The worst part is that a teammate spawned directly in front of them a split-second before.  That may be a bad example but situations like that happen on every map.  Earlier an enemy stuck me with Semtex and started running away... he was sure I'd be dead, right?  Of course I died, but I instantaneously respawned in the EXACT same spot where I died (in the middle of the map) and ending up shooting him in the back.  He was pissed but honestly, that's not my fault... its a result of bad spawn logic and the absence of a spawn timer.

     

    Essentially, the update was much too drastic. To go from a variable 15 second timer to having none... well it's changed the HC dynamic.  Games have become less about tactics and more about spawning fast enough to keep the other team from spawning safely.  The solution to me is obvious, and would have been my first choice over nixing the timer altogether...

     

    Cut it down the middle and go with a variable 8 second timer.  If this had been done first, it would have been a win/win for all those concerned.  Now that there is no timer, I'm afraid that changing it to anything but 0 is going to cause an uproar.  Even so, it'd be worth it.

    • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
      ShaneDog

      I play alot of hardcore and to me it seems like they could have did it better. I always thought that 15 sec wave spawn was silly though. To me it seemed that a 5 sec timer from time of death with the ability to force the spawn by pressing X (much like core) would have been proper.

       

      Instead of a killcam it would just be on teammates until you forced the spawn yourself or the 5 sec timer from death is over.

       

      P.S. are you named after the jpwilson slime from UO?

      • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
        jpwilson25

        Nope, that's my name.  I looked up that slime though, interesting stuff.

      • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
        hairybubba1963

        I also think that something like the shorter delay with an "X Button" force respawn would have been the best option when changing.

        In addition to the obvious points of the drewish fella, I would like to add that having no spawn delay makes it totally pointless to do a good old fashioned T-Bag to a deserving enemy. With no spawn delay, T-Bagging gives the T-bagger all the risks with absolutely none of the rewards :-)

         

        I do have to admit I do still slap the old sack on an enemy that has pissed me off but now feel bad because of the risk that I take doing so, knowing that the enemy will never get a chance to endure gesture.

    • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
      nicedrewishfela

      Agreed 100%. People are moving towards HC more and more, which is good and bad. It brings people new to the dynamic who are used to getting right back into the action, but they fail to realize there is a larger picture. 8 seconds seems fair to me!

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer

    I rarely play HC so take my comment for what it's worth.

     

    Part of the reason I don't play certain game modes is because of the timer. I don't like waiting to respawn. I need to get back into the action quickly. I have also felt that having a timer can slow the gameplay down. Most players don't like to wait to respawn, so they tend to stay put more (camp if you will) which can slow a game down.

     

    I can see your point on needing to change classes and things of that nature and not having a killcam playing while you are doing it can hinder your play. Everyone needs a quick sec to gather themselves if need be and the lack of a timer does not allow for that. I think if they could find a time limit that everyone can agree on then that would make the masses happy. Not to long for the ADHD players and not to short for the I have to change classes and gather myself players. Maybe 3-5 seconds? I always thought 7 or more seconds was WAY to long.

     

    Just my two cents.

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
    Ch1chaa

    The time isn't for me much of an issue, more like the place players spawn. It's not rare to kill a player and a few feet further he spawned close to you and ready to kill you. I like that I don't have to wait ages (main reason why I don't touch SnD) between deaths. But the spawnplaces deffo need an overhaul

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer

    The spawn timer has gone ?

    EXCELLENT !  I might give HC a few games then. :)

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
    blarkw

    nicedrewishfela wrote:

     

    I want to start off first by thanking Treyarch for bringing back Hardcore as it should be. The ricochet mess of MW3 just never felt the same. It seems balanced, you need to be accurate with your shots and deaths aren't instantaneous for the most part. It just feels like Hardcore again, and I am loving that. While I'd like to see more modes like Dom added, that is a discussion for another time.

     

    But I do have concerns about the change to the HC Spawn Timer. For those who don't know... HC used to have a 15 second wave spawn timer, and for whatever reasons it has been completely removed from this game.

     

    While the HC Spawn Timer could be frustrating at times, especially when you get a 15 second spawn towards the end of a heated match, it served a very necessary purpose, in my eyes and based on my experience as a long time Hardcore Gamer. With health being reduced to 30%,  with no regeneration, you have a very small window of opportunity. If you are hit, you can't simply hide and get better, you have to become more aware of your situation and use caution when engaging. The Spawn Timer allowed players a moment to breathe and establish themselves before the enemy came back after them.

     

    The other aspect of the spawn timer is tactical advantage. A lot of the Hardcore game is getting the upper hand in certain situations. Maps such as Slums and Carrier have a great advantage from one spawn to the other. A team that is able to take a certain spawn has a much higher chance at victory than if they were to spawn on the other side. Part of getting that tactical advantage is flanking and attacking. The Spawn Timer allowed for these tactics, as when you took out an enemy they wouldn't come back immediately, allowing you to progress further into that spawn or area and continue to try to take the advantage. Without the timer, people are spawning immediately back in that spawn or area, disrupting so many of the tactics that are crucial to the HC game.

     

    Secondly, the timer encouraged team communication. Effective players knew that you could cycle through teammates in either first or third person view and would use this to their team's advantage by calling out enemy positions. An effective player would also use it to their advantage by planning their route of attack based on their observations during the spawn time.

     

    Last, the map size and spawning issues in this game absolutely call for the necessity of a Spawn Timer. It is actually a disadvantage for players to not have the time before spawning as the instant re-appearance means they will likely pop up in the sites of an attacker. This leads to way too many spawn kills/deaths. Perfect example... On Cargo today I ran out of the two story towards the red crates.I killed an enemy, flanked left around the crates edging the water, poked around the corner and ended up killing the same enemy, who had just spawned in. I backed behind the crate again to reload only to get killed by that same enemy, who had spawned behind me. The Spawn Timer prevents spawn kills for the most part.

     

    I took some time and gave the no Spawn Timer thing a try. And while I have adapted, I believe HC is better with the Spawn Timer. It allows time to change classes, encourages team communication, allows for tactical gameplay, and helps fight spawn killing. Even if they had shortened the timer to 5-10 seconds and put it back in, it would make a tremendous difference, in my opinion.

     

    So what do my fellow Hardcore Players think? Are there reasons I haven't thought of for why it needs to return? Do you disagree and feel its better without the Timer, and if so, why?

     

    Asking respectfully that this not devolve into a Core v Hardcore flame fest, as that is off topic. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

     

    Agreed 100%. That is everything I have been trying to say. Thank you.

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
    riffy08

    One thing I have always liked about HC is that after killing someone, there's not much chance that they are going to know exactly where you're going to be...in other words, set up a retaliation kill.  With the new form of HC I find myself killing and being killed by the opposing player much more often...it becomes a 1v1 match of revenge;  He killed me but I know he will be "here" and take him out, then I'll move here since he knows where I am...etc.  It's less about the team as it is a 1v1 chess match.

    I still love it, and the pace is quicker...it's just different.  I like the idea of a reduced timer though. That sounds like the best of both worlds.

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
    trialstardragon

    The 15 second timer was way too long at most it ever should have been was 5 seconds. where at the most on average a person had to wait 1-3 unless catching the wave at the begining.

     

    Removing the timer does not really hamper communication. When I play with my friends we still communicate even with the timer gone. What it does allow is we can get back and help defend sooner preventing spawn rush/flip from happening as easy.

     

    Plus there is the advantage that those who die come back sooner to push the rush just as hard making it harder for a less organized team to defend. With the timer it gave the defending team more time to reload and made it easier to defend as long as they did not die.

     

    Aftermath, or slums. set up defense on one side. And as long as the one team defends properly the other team can not take it with the timer as it was. Without the timer you have less time to reload or change posistions before the enemy is back in your face again making it harder to defend and easier for them to mass rush one side of the map.

     

    Was completely removing the timer the best idea? Maybe not, but it should not have ever been 15 seconds. For that is even too long even for obj games even for ctf. No team should be given a freebie pass to the other teams flag or spawn area in the game and that is what the 15 second timer did.

     

    And yes I know I partially contradicited myself. Because the pros and cons can go either way depending upon the team and how they play together.

     

    possible solution, do not use wave spawn timer, but give players the option to wait 3 seconds to respawn or press a to respawn imeadiately.

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
    ion5150

    If one is so in love with a respawn timer, then simply sit there until your self imposed timer has expired.

     

    Again, thank you 3ARC for moving the game forward in this aspect for us HC players.

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
    r33k

    i have two viewpoints on this thread.

     

    1. i totally agree that tactics and game play have changed. it has been sped up. no looking out for team mates on the spectator cam, no knowing where things stand before you spawn. a lot of things have changed. removnig the timer was a pivotal change in HCTDM as it stands. it changed the whole landscape and how this mode is now played. oldguard players now have to adapt what they have come accustomed to.

     

    2. having this new style with no timers is actually pretty fun. i LIKE not having to wait. i can still employ some of my tactics that i have used for years, but now with a new twist. a new style. a new era. one that im enjoying at the moment. there is and always will be some form of spawn issues on smaller maps. even without times. CTF is a perfect example and can be done in TDM as well by not violating the 2/3'rds rule(so there is no flip). since the timer has been pulled, flipping in TDM is much faster because the push is faster. being aware of how fast the push is and knowing where people are by observation allows you to anticipate the flip.

    • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
      nicedrewishfela

      Very good points, thanks for explaining your views on it.

       

      I feel like I have adjusted to the change. I am doing better in this game than in any previous CoD title to date.

       

      My observations are just as a fan of the game and seeing some of the silliness taking it out has caused.

       

      Played a little before work today, and had too many situations where I would make my approach to the enemy position and take out an enemy just to have them spawn immediately behind me before I could get any semblance of control over that area.

       

      I think having a shorter wave timer would keep the HC feel but also please the instant gratification folks.

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
    biron_w

    I've just started playing Hardcore today and i'm enjoying it a lot more than core. It seems fairer for some reason.

    However,I don't like that you spawn INSTANTLY after dying. I've no problem with them removing the timer but they should let us choose when to respawn like in core. The reason it annoys me is that if the enemy get air support up and I get killed by it,I don't have time to switch to a class to shoot it down. So I end up having to hide somewhere to change my class and them sometimes die twice to said air support

    • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
      nicedrewishfela

      It really effects the tactical gameplay in HC and makes it a little too much like Core for my liking.

       

      If I make a good move and break through the enemy defense to allow for my teammates to move in.... what good does it do if the enemy team just spawns right there immediately anyways?

       

      I have had games in which I have broken through enemy lines, taken out several defenders, and was killed because I reloaded and they immediately spawned there to kill me. It also sucks for the other team at times because they spawn in front of me and I have no choice but to kill them again.

       

      HC needs a timer. They can shorten it, but it needs to be there.

    • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
      gallp13

      Same same HC virgin of 2 weeks....loving it. Support 3 sec delay but accept majority to date prefer instant. If enough rally 3arc will adjust......majority rules on these matters, as they should.

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
    NiteFalken

    Agree 100%, although I hated the timer I have a new appreciation for it when it comes to spawn issues like you described. I also dont like that you dont have any time whatsoever to switch classes as it throws you right back into the match. A shorter wave timer would be great as it will also keep the headless chickens from running back into the gauntlet over and over again. Im tired of telling the 3 and 16 KDR guy to pack up his game, take it back to the store, and trade it in for LEGO Star Wars because that is more his speed.

     

    Then again I would mind a respawn delay based on the number of deaths a player has. Say a penalty starting at 5 deaths, increasing at 7, and maxing out at 10. That way booters have to wait longer and players learn to play smarter instead of causing a team loss.

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
    Restore_Hardcore

    I missed this post, couldn't agree with you more man.

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer

    How bout instead of a timer. U just have to push X to respawn. That way it is spawn in ten seconds if u want or hit X right after u die and get back into the action.

    • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
      nicedrewishfela

      It's a thought. The idea is, however... that the timer is forced. Allows for tactical positioning by the team that killed you as well as encourages teamwork by allowing the killed player to scroll through teammates and call out threats, as well as prepare their class for whatever the needs of the match are.

       

      Just think it adds a strategic element to the game. Plus, some may "troll" their team by not spawning in a reasonable time frame, leaving them short handed.

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
    CBZ71

    All I have ever played is HC from the beginning and I liked the respawn timer.  With out it, no one cares about dieing because they just rush back in, die, rush back in, die.. etc.  It took the "Hard Core" out of HC.  If you are spending 1/3 of the game watching from the sidelines, then try actually using some skill to get around the map instead of rushing in and spray & prey.  Now it is no different than core, just less bullets to kill someone.  Dieing deserves a penalty. I don't play nearly what I used to because its just a big mess now.  I have actually lost interest in the game.

  • Re: Let's Talk about the Hardcore Spawn Timer
    iivrruummii

    Every gamemodes should have a spawn delay. 3 seconds would be perfect.