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  • 200. Re: LagComp Video Discussion: BlackOps2 Edition

    Thanks for sharing, mp1st is a good site. OMG the thread has 25k views already.

  • 201. Re: LagComp Video Discussion: BlackOps2 Edition
    ovenbakedmuffin

    Excellent.

    Now I'm quite pleased I uploaded the video despite being sick. It's been over a month and it's still hanging on. I certainly didn't want to leave everyone in the dark for that long.

     

     

    I may use my day off this week to address some misconceptions and build a simple networked game. A full networking overview is a bit extreme, but a quick demonstration is not. Perhaps if 'lagcomp' is less mysterious to the average person, they will be less likely to assume there is some justifiable reason why Treyarch continues to ruin our online experience.

  • 202. Re: LagComp Video Discussion: BlackOps2 Edition
    Ss78_

    You can build a networked game in a day?

     

    Sounds interesting anyway and you might want to try some cough sweeties this time

  • 203. Re: LagComp Video Discussion: BlackOps2 Edition
    ovenbakedmuffin

    Absolutely. Having experience with MMORPGs, FPS networking is incredibly easy. But don't expect BetterOps3 in one day - just a quick networking demonstration.

     

    I may need to eat an entire bag of them.

  • 204. Re: LagComp Video Discussion: BlackOps2 Edition
    TinyLittleTimmy

    ovenbakedmuffin, after testing myself online using my PC I bridged both my xBox and my PS3 through my PC, used a gaming router, a ddwrt, and regular home, wireless and wired, changed mtus,shrank buffers to stop buffer bloat, open, fowarded, triggered, and dmz'd both consoles, set their ips to high priority, used a full duplex gigabit only settings and changed my nics to preferences of high ping small packets instead of large downloads...

     

    ulimately it is easy to manipulate lag compensation with NetBalancer, you can add delay to both incoming and outgoing packets as well as throttle speeds (and change dropped packets percentage for both very easily) Unfortunately no matter how much lag comp I gave myself nothing helped (not even 500ms delay with 20% incoming packet loss) all it did was make my bullets effect be delayed by 500ms.

     

    The best help was lowing my ping by combating bufferbloat and opening ports on a gigabit gaming router rather than a regular 10/100 home router (with no NetBalancer nor PC in between)

     

    BUT ONE MAJOR PROBLEM REMAINED: THE POV DELAY AND/OR CAMERA POSITION YOU ILLUSTRATED IN THE VIDEO.

     

    The best example I saw in Black Ops 2 was on Raid domination. I was capturing the flag up the stairs from the basket ball court when I saw a enemy player coming towards the stairs. I was laying on the ground pointing towards the stairs with my LMG and sight. As they crouched and edged up the stairs super slow ADS'd with their sniper rifle I saw the tip of their head edge above the stairs. I hit dead on but all my bullets missed going above their head despite the fact I aimed lower as I shot. Then poof was dead and never got to see their body much less their gun, the only thing that shows on stairs is the hair on the top of their head, Yet on the replay they could see my entire body and their rifle and upper body were completely exposed, plus all my bullets hit the ground rather that go over their head SO THIS IS DEFINATELY A POV ISSUE. Nothing to do with the lag comp nor host issues we had in MW3. This example would make a good video, here I clearly had the high ground, there should be no way to fire a weapon before your full head and gun are exposed, head glitching is the perfect example of why the camera should always display from the guns pov.

     

    Another perfect example is with the death machine, it hangs down below the waist, yet if you run up to a window with it you can still see out the window, aim, and fire, the gun sticks out through the wall below the window (for example the money vault window on Raid looking out at the pool) when in fact the bullets should all just hit the concrete wall. If the POV were at the death machine's barrel level rather than head level then all you would see and hit is the concrete wall below the window. Another major POV fail!

     

    ps. now if we could just get something done about these crazy spawns, I keep getting shot in the back by the 3-4 people I just killed, it is ridiculous.

  • 205. Re: LagComp Video Discussion: BlackOps2 Edition
    Nubdub

    I have a gigabit modem and router, but what good does it do when the lan plug on the xbox only accepts 10/100? Also, what did you do to the router to decrease ("combat") buffer bloat? My router has a 128mb of ram for system use and an extra 128mb flash memory. I still constantly receive 1 second behind lag with a ping of 15-17ms to chicago (200 miles away). Bandwidth is 35 down and 6 up. I have never recorded any packet loss in any test I have ever done. Jitter is very low too.

  • 206. Re: LagComp Video Discussion: BlackOps2 Edition
    ovenbakedmuffin

    TinyLittleTimmy wrote:

     

    ovenbakedmuffin, after testing myself online using my PC I bridged both my xBox and my PS3 through my PC, used a gaming router, a ddwrt, and regular home, wireless and wired, changed mtus,shrank buffers to stop buffer bloat, open, fowarded, triggered, and dmz'd both consoles, set their ips to high priority, used a full duplex gigabit only settings and changed my nics to preferences of high ping small packets instead of large downloads...

     

    A large collection of tasks. As this is a software problem, none of that is necessary, which you have likely realized. Simplicity is often our greatest asset.

     

     

    TinyLittleTimmy wrote:

     

    ...

    ulimately it is easy to manipulate lag compensation with NetBalancer, you can add delay to both incoming and outgoing packets as well as throttle speeds (and change dropped packets percentage for both very easily)...

    I'll have to look at that. It would be great for the individuals constantly asking me for a Windows-based utility.

     

    TinyLittleTimmy wrote:

     

    ...

    Unfortunately no matter how much lag comp I gave myself nothing helped (not even 500ms delay with 20% incoming packet loss) all it did was make my bullets effect be delayed by 500ms.

     

    The best help was lowing my ping ...

    That's precisely how it should behave for BO2.

    I should clarify; you should have a sight advantage of [500ms] as well as a damage delay of [500ms], negating any advantage at this stage. As Treyarch has 'compensated' for actions, but not reactions, you have the advantage over a player who has not moved from cover - regardless of your ping. However, the lower the other player's ping, the less of a disadvantage they will have. As you are bound to find yourself in that situation regularly, lowering your ping reduces your disadvantage.

     

     

    TinyLittleTimmy wrote:

     

     

    ...

    BUT ONE MAJOR PROBLEM REMAINED: THE POV DELAY AND/OR CAMERA POSITION YOU ILLUSTRATED IN THE VIDEO.

     

    The best example I saw in Black Ops 2 was on Raid domination. ...

    I hit dead on but all my bullets missed going above their head despite the fact I aimed lower as I shot. Then poof was dead and never got to see their body much less their gun, the only thing that shows on stairs is the hair on the top of their head, Yet on the replay they could see my entire body and their rifle and upper body were completely exposed, plus all my bullets hit the ground rather that go over their head SO THIS IS DEFINATELY A POV ISSUE. Nothing to do with the lag comp nor host issues we had in MW3.

    ...

    FOV/POV/Camera position has nothing to do with the delays shown in my video, nor the others I have watched. In my testing, I painstakingly lined up my run angle to avoid any interaction with camera issues. If there were any, it was on the order of 1~2 frames. Proof against camera-related delay lies with the equal sight advantage / damage disadvantage. If you run around a corner and fire your weapon at a player, you will see the player early and damage the player late by an equal amount (unless latency has changed in the meantime). If it were a camera issue, you would see and damage the player early, or you would not hit the player at all (host determines if your bullets should hit the player). This would have lead to a very different situation, where players could kill one another without being seen at all. I would have published that in my video if it existed; I wouldn't have had to work so hard to get to the truth.

     

    Killcams will not be what you see in the game unless you are the host, and theater will not even show the same results if you are the host. Neither of them should be used as examples if at all possible.

     

    If referring to theater mode as "the replay", the displayed positions are smoothed and often wrong. It's fine for recording your gameplays for YouTube if you don't have a capturecard, but not for purposes of comparison.

     

    Finally, yes there are issues with the camera which are completely unrelated to the networking issues I have discussed in my video. Headglitching is the most apparent of such. What you likely experienced is, in fact, headglitching. While you could only see the very top of the opponent's head, they could see you unhindered. Lowering the camera position would fix ADS-glitching, and raycasting twice - one to point of impact, another between weapon and point of impact - would arrest hip-glitching. A final adjustment would need to be made to collision detection, as it is currently possible to clip your weapon through a wall and fire out of it.

     

    It is extremely important to separate networking and camera issues. While they each have significant and obvious effects on gameplay, their origins are entirely unique - as well as their implications.

     

    Perhaps most important of all, we cannot allow staff/others to blame our experience of lag on completely unrelated issues. It was done in BO1 where all lag was blamed on theater mode, and the effects of that still follow us to this day.

     

     

     

    As a follow-up to my previous post, you can expect a short video within the week. I have the footage necessary, but it may take some time to do the editing as I am working long hours.

  • 207. Re: LagComp Video Discussion: BlackOps2 Edition

    Thanks for all the work trying to highlight this issue.

     

    I have experimented with a linux gateway with TC (I'm assuming netbalancer works in a similar way), but using varying amounts of latency and loss has not netted any measurable positive results.

     

    What we need is for 3arc to do to BO2 what IW did to MW3 in TU23.

  • 208. Re: LagComp Video Discussion: BlackOps2 Edition
    ovenbakedmuffin

    Griefbot wrote:

     

    Thanks for all the work trying to highlight this issue.

     

    I have experimented with a linux gateway with TC (I'm assuming netbalancer works in a similar way), but using varying amounts of latency and loss has not netted any measurable positive results.

     

    What we need is for 3arc to do to BO2 what IW did to MW3 in TU23.

    It is possible to obtain a partial advantage with high jitter / packet reordering. You may see players early and damage them early as well. True instant kills are possible with such a method. However, it most certainly doesn't behave as MW3 did in its early days.

     

    TU23 was released one month before the next iteration of the series. If Treyarch does that, it will only be to compete with COD10.

  • 209. Re: LagComp Video Discussion: BlackOps2 Edition
    Ss78_

    My personal opinion on tu23 and mw3 is the game was broke and nothing could fix it as that update didn't. I hold the same opinion of blops 2. Roll on the next CoD. Who knows they might get it better next time.

     

    If they bothered to communicate with us they might be able to achieve this. They certainly don't tackle getting feedback in a transparent or professional enough manner which is something I highlighted with mw3 too. Treyarch are a level below IW in their communication standards. If they need help all they should do is ask but they unfortunately don't want to damage the brand by even hinting at their failures which in turn is counter productive to the long term effect on the gameplay and franchise.

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