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    2nd Chance - Tuning Considerations

      Hello-

      The topic of 2nd chance is too large to stuff in a general game-play thread. So here we go. This thread will only be open about 48 hours so get involved while it lasts.

      I've looked into this as requested. Yes. The game has 0.5 seconds of invulnerability while falling. It's intentional. It's been like this forever. It was 0.5 in World at War. It also appears to have been 0.5 in Modern Warfare 2. I am not 100% positive. I think it was 0.8 in  Modern Warfare 1/ Call of Duty 4. At least in the early days. It may have been patched.

      2nd Chance has this invulnerability because if it did not have it, you would never fall and make it into 2nd chance. You would never get Last Stand/Final Stand/2nd Chance (these 3 things are all the same core mechanic with different features).

      This mechanic frustrates some players. Removal or further reduction of the invulnerability would all but wipe the perk off the planet. I'm sure many people on these forums would be okay with that. We don't want to remove the Perk entirely. However, we are committed to working with people to tune it.

      Ok. Know right this second any "Just remove the perk" replies are going to be ignored and get you blacklisted. I like interacting with the people who are engaging in civil dialog. If you like to nerd rage, scream, yell, or bounce out profanities be prepared to never discuss the game with a developer because that's all that will get you.

      This said .... let's talk about what we are willing to do and get some polite and constructive feedback:

      Some of this perk is handled in script. For example: a headshot means No 2nd Chance. Adding shotguns to that list is trivial and low risk. Something we would be willing to consider.

      Some of this perk is handled in code. That automatically makes it more dangerous and risky. Any mistakes or desire to back out the changes would mean we need to wait for the next TU. It could be up to 6-8 weeks between TUs, so we just don't like making code changes for gameplay reasons.

      We already test for certain types of damage (we call it MOD or means of death). This is why you can still knife someone "falling" and kill them. We would consider testing for other means of death such as fire, impact, explosive, impact, and possibly even sniper rifles.

      In a sick way, 2nd chance is insurance against one hit kill weapons. It also rewards teamwork. This is partially why we are not prepared to flat out allow snipers to drop 2nd Chance users. As a sniper you have precision as your advantage so you can go for a headshot.

      As a shotgun user, precision is not what you have. Headshots with shotguns is the very definition of chance and randomization. Shotguns are generally disadvantages over many other weapons except at extreme close ranges.

      Treyarch COD games have usually had some type of "medic" sub-class, mechanic, or feature. We like that. We think the dynamic is interesting and can be rewarding. The intention of many perks is to create those dynamics. It's not to frustrate you for that one in a million ballistic knife shot where you ended up hitting him in the 0.5 seconds he was invulnerable. However, it's a "perk." Look up what perk means. It needs to offer something.

      In summary:

      -We are considering allowing shotgun users who do sufficient damage to a 2nd Chance user to put him out of his misery straight away

      -- We would consider this because their is good precendt for it. Their are plenty of cases where you won't ever go into 2nd chance. Headshots and using objectives are good examples.

      -We are considering allowing more items to be exempt from the "invulnerability frames."

      -We are NOT going to remove the perk or flat out remove the "invulnerability."

      -We are (still) considering other changes we listed in the gameplay thread (which was written before this post) including changing the revive time, making it so you can only be revived once, and perhaps changing who gets kill vs assist credit.

      Discuss. Politely.

      David 'Vahn' Vonderhaar
        • 1. Re: 2nd Chance - Tuning Considerations
          Thank you for taking the time to post this update.

          In my opinion there should be a "dazed" period of at least a second or two where they can do nothing (like a "stun"). If he falls behind a wall or some other obstacle he can be revived but if he falls to second chance out in the open he shouldn't be able to IMMEDIATELY return fire and kill you before you even realize that they didn't really die.  Nothing is more frustrating than dropping a player and then turning to engage another enemy only to realize that the first player didn't really die.  Several times I didn't know what even killed me until I watch the kill cam.

          The 0.5 second period of invincibility definitely needs to be turned down. It really throws off the rhythm of the game when you are use to taking down players with 3 or 4 on target shots only to have a second chance player absorb 5-7 shots at close range and then fall to the ground with a pistol.

          Thanks again!
          • 2. Re: 2nd Chance - Tuning Considerations
            rankismet

            Vahn wrote:

             



            In summary:

            -We are considering allowing shotgun users who do sufficient damage to a 2nd Chance user to put him out of his misery straight away

            -- We would consider this because their is good precendt for it. Their are plenty of cases where you won't ever go into 2nd chance. Headshots and using objectives are good examples.

            -We are considering allowing more items to be exempt from the "invulnerability frames."

            -We are NOT going to remove the perk or flat out remove the "invulnerability."

            -We are (still) considering other changes we listed in the gameplay thread (which was written before this post) including changing the revive time, making it so you can only be revived once, and perhaps changing who gets kill vs assist credit.

            Discuss. Politely.

            David 'Vahn' Vonderhaar



            Blurred vision and/or a jittery aim would be best... at least remove the ability to ADS, hipfire only.

            Love the thought of flipping kill/assist of the 2nd Chancer.

            Limit the revives to one. It's 2nd chance... not 3rd and fourth.
            • 3. Re: 2nd Chance - Tuning Considerations
              DeFy RaGe
              I like your ideas about 2nd chance, and i like that your going to change it.  I think the worst two parts about SC are the knifing and shooting primary while falling and invincible, and the kill stealing, and it looks like your looking at both of them.  Also, just a suggestion, but is it possible to move second chance to a Perk 2? If you think about no other perk 3 helps you kill people besides SC, and some of the Perk 2 perks help you kill.  Just a suggestion, but good work guys.

              **SOMETHING I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO SEE***
              If a person falls into 2nd chance, either end their killstreak or make them restart it if they get revived.  And don't allow 2nd chance kills to count towards killstreaks.  that is if you guys agree with this.
              • 4. Re: 2nd Chance - Tuning Considerations
                GREENPOCALYPSE
                The thing that frustrates me more than anything is them killing me with there primary when they are already on their way down, them being able to plant a claymore while falling, them being able to knife me while falling. I'm all about the kills counting for the person who put them down I've been saying this for years. I do think during their period of invincibility they should not be able knife, or do anything else.
                • 5. Re: 2nd Chance - Tuning Considerations
                  Hi,

                  Please turn it where when the person is going into the 2nd chance position, make it where they cannot Knife or shoot. Once they are in the 2nd chance position, they can shoot/knife.

                  It should take 1 bullet to kill a person in second chance.
                  • 6. Re: 2nd Chance - Tuning Considerations
                    Shoat Nin Bread
                    Maybe I've missed it, but is there any reason that Second Chance users are still...in some cases, not all...able to use their primaries while falling?

                    Also, what if a Second Chance user, regardless of their secondary weapon, auto-defaulted to the weakest handgun in the game?  Just a thought.
                    • 7. Re: 2nd Chance - Tuning Considerations
                      dt01
                      The best thing u can do is credit the kill to the player who put the guy into second chance if someone else finishes him off. And I like how in W@W someone could only be revived by another second chance user, basically everyone in this game is a medic and that aint right.

                      During the 0.5 of invulnerability they shouldnt be able to do anything or just make it shorter, about 0.3 sec would be fair.
                      • 8. Re: 2nd Chance - Tuning Considerations
                        TheJAMESGM
                        If you remove the knifing and shooting while falling down it will be fine cause when they can start shooting again you can just wait until the fall and the invulnerability is gone so you have a huge advantage for the one who put him in oh and you guys should have already have this done that you get the kill and not the assist not thinking of it sorry but not adding this in would be a pretty stupid idea but so far you guys at Treyarch are doing great work keep it up.
                        • 9. Re: 2nd Chance - Tuning Considerations
                          OwNaGeIzMyGaMe
                          I think those are exellent ideas and i hope they are updated in the game
                          -We are (still) considering other changes we listed in the gameplay thread (which was written before this post) including changing the revive time, making it so you can only be revived once, and perhaps changing who gets kill vs assist credit.

                          That one is the best idea for any game yet.
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