7 Replies Latest reply: Jun 26, 2014 3:27 PM by LiutenantTrillanes RSS

    From the Sniping community to Infinity Ward after the December 23rd Patch. DEVELOPERS PLEASE READ!

    TAHA-NASSER

      Dear @CODNextGen, @IWMarkRubin, @CallofDuty, @candyslexia, @teanah

       

      I really hope that you and the other Infinity Ward employees read this. I'm writing on behalf of the whole CoD sniping community, since I've watched a lot of videos and read a lot of tweets on the topic over the last few years, and have become a pretty good sniper myself but nobody else seems to be able to put all our points in one place, so I'm doing it here. I really hope that you the devs will give the sniping community, a pretty loyal group of CoD fans, a fair hearing and take the five or so minutes required to read this with an open mind.

       

      My personal feelings on the sniper patch

      Suffice it to say I was pretty horrified when I tried out sniping with the new patch (23/12/13) today. I've been an avid CoD player since CoD4 and have been sniping since MW2. I really cannot understand why my style of play, which is the hardest to pull off effectively, needed a nerf. The idea that snipers were running around totally dominating Ghosts is totally alien to me and I've seen no evidence of that happening in the 2 or so days of time I've put into Ghosts so far. If anything the majority of snipers I've seen (with the exception of rare players) get absolutely dominated by assault rifle users. Most snipers are easy pickings for any half decent player using a reg gun.

       

      Why sniping isn't overpowered (collated arguments from across the sniping community)

      There are many reasons that snipers have always given for sniping not being overpowered. Here are some of them:


      1. Snipers only have one shot to get the kill. A reg gunner can miss his first shot and multiple others afterwards, but as long as he drags the right thumbstick over the enemy player at some point he will likely score the kill. He doesn't have the time delay of reloading between individual bullets that a sniper does. If a sniper misses a shot on an enemy, especially in a 1 to 1 gunfight, he is almost certainly dead and this is especially true in CoD Ghosts where the damage of regular guns was so high already. So reg gun users have this in their advantage.


      2. Reg gun users are also able to take advantage of not having to be fully aimed down sight in order to score hits on the enemy. A reg gunner can start to fire before he is fully aimed (pre-fire) which is a huge advantage in a gunfight. Getting damage on the other player first +/- making the enemy player flinch first is a huge part of winning gunfights. A sniper has to wait until his scope is fully scoped in to take a shot and have a chance of landing the kill. So reg gunners also have the advantage or pre-fire, while snipers do not.


      3. Reg gunners also have a big advantage when faced with multiple enemies. A player using an AR/SMG/LMG can deal with multiple enemies in view by keeping the right trigger pressed and moving the right thumbstick over the multiple enemies (spray). A sniper on the other hand, cannot spray and has to take it one kill at a time, waiting for his scope to zoom out from the previous kill, centring his aim on the next enemy, zooming all the way in and then taking the next shot. Due to the increased zoom of sniper scopes relative to iron sights or red dot sights in CoD, it's also harder for the sniper to trail a moving enemy in this situation. He has to anticipate where the enemy is going to be when his scope is fully zoomed in and make sure it meets the enemy player at that point on the screen. This is something that takes a long time to learn. So the ability to spray is also something that reg gunners have over snipers.

       

      4. Another huge advantage that reg gunners have over snipers is the ability to strafe whilst shooting. Perks like Stalker make this even more powerful. Reg gunners can stay aimed down sight, keep firing and strafe at the same time without having a loss of their weapon's accuracy. For snipers, on the other hand it's the total opposite. A sniper has to be absolutely still at the moment of taking the shot. Every decent sniper in the CoD series will tell you that even slightly touching the left thumbstick to move at the moment of taking the shot massively increases the spread of the weapon and will likely make you miss the shot, even when fully zoomed in. So snipers have to be absolutely still when taking the shot compared to reg gunners who can be a fast moving target. This is another big advantage that reg gunners have over snipers.


      5. Another thing to keep in mind is that snipers (with the exception of the VKS) are generally not able to use silencers and remain anywhere near as effective. On the other hand reg gunners can use silencers on some of the stronger weapons (SC-2010, AK-12, Remington R5, Mtar) and be able to play just as aggressively. The vast majority of reg gunners that I meet in game use silencers. Have you guys ever tried playing without a silencer? You will notice how much faster you generally die because you show up on the enemy mini map. Well that is something that snipers have to deal with regularly, in most CoD games we don't have the option of using a silenced weapon.


      The bottom line from the points above is that sniping IS harder to do than reg gunning. Snipers do not have the benefit of entire magazines between reloads, we can't pre-fire, we can't spray, we can't strafe and for the most part we have to use our weapons unsilenced. I really struggle to understand how despite ALL of these advantages reg gunners still complain when a sniper beats them in a 1 to 1 gunfight and what amazes me even more is that the devs have bought into this?! People really need to realise that regular guns already have a massive advantage over snipers for all these reasons. Nerfing snipers to make them even worse makes the game less balanced, not more balanced.

       

      Maybe the sniper is a better player than you are?

      The vast majority of time, when I use reg guns I absolutely dominate snipers. On the few occasions when a sniper beats me in a fair fight its because he was either faster than me or he read the spawns and was expecting that flow of enemy players. Either way, instead of ******** about it and assuming its because he has an unfair advantage, I simply take my hat off to him.

       

      Stats can be deceiving

      I'm reading that the devs are using 'stats' to justify their nerf of the snipers. Having been a hardcore CoD player since 2009 and played the game for countless hours I find this extremely hard to believe. The bottom line is that the kid who is running around with a sniper rifle is almost always at the bottom of the leaderboard by the time the game finishes. Snipers who can actually hold their own against other styles of play are EXTREMELY rare in the real world. As a result I find it hard to believe that the average sniper rifle user is out there dominating the average reg gun user and that the stats show this.

       

      Have the devs considered that there may be confounding factors in their stats? Isn't it quite likely that guys who use sniper rifles have been playing the game for longer (few people start off sniping, most graduate to it after months - years of playing). Isn't it also possible that people who are into sniping are actually putting more hours into the game and are therefore better at the game than casual players who are more likely to use more conventional weapons like assault rifles and smgs? Couldn't these be just a few of the obvious causes for any perceived stats showing that snipers need to be nerfed?

       

      Sniping has the steepest learning curve of any play style in Call of Duty

      This is pretty much just a fact and is known to anyone who has started learning sniping after a period of using reg guns. Watch any commentary by any well known sniper and they ALL say the same thing. That they sucked at first and it tooks months / years to get really good at sniping. My own personal experience is the same - learning to snipe is a long process of becoming experienced with the weapon and developing muscle memory. This fact alone should inform the developers that nerfing sniping is ridiculous. Something that takes some of the best players out there years to master cannot be called easy or overpowered.

       

      Our challenge to developers who still think sniping is overpowered

      We would like to set a challenge to any developer out there who isn't already an experienced sniper and who still thinks sniping is overpowered. Take your KDR for your favourite regular weapon. Now spend a week using only a sniper rifle (any of them) and see if you can match your KDR to when you used the regular weapon. We guarantee that you will fail miserably, not because you are bad but because sniping is tough and takes a long time to get good at. Maybe this exercise will make you realise that.

       

      If sniping really is OP and needs a nerf, why do professional players never use snipers in ranked tournaments?

      Competitive gaming is where the best strategies to win gunfights need to be employed. These guys are playing for real world rewards like prestige, pro status and money so you can be sure that if a weapon is powerful they will use it. However, it is pretty much unheard of for a pro player, on console at least, (promod on PC is a different issue) to use a sniper in a ranked tournament. They ALWAYS use assault rifles or submachine guns. Don't you think that if sniping really was so OP as to require a nerf these guys, who are going to do anything they can to win matches and tournaments, would be using them? This pretty much proves that sniping does not need a patch.

       

      The effect that this nerf will have on Ghosts

      Those players who still want to use sniper rifles will be forced to play in a more and more defensive style. You are going to see more and more players hiding in parts of the map with stealth perks and sniping people who come into view. I can guarantee you that every single one of you who has patched sniping, or who wants sniping nerfed will find this way more frustrating than meeting a sniper out in the open where you have a decent chance of taking him out. Nothing is more frustrating than getting killed by some concealed camper and you are going to see a lot more of that after this patch, because playing aggressively with snipers is a lot less viable now. More camping is not what anyone wants or needs.

       

      In addition to more camping, this nerf essentially limits the number of play styles that are viable. It decrease the variety of different styles and players that exists. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that less variety in a game like Call of Duty is not a good thing.

       

      The effect that nerfs like this will have on the Call of Duty franchise

      Infinity ward was always the pro sniping dev house, and Treyarch always had a problem with it. As much as many in the sniping community disliked Treyarch titles because of that - it worked out fairly well since it meant that both snipers and players who have their irrational hatred of snipers had Call of Duty games they could enjoy. Now that Infinity Ward has also gone over to the dark side, snipers will have to move back to older games.


      It's really strange to me that you the developers are now squeezing some of your most hardcore fans. The sniping community is huge online and a big part of this is the skill that well known snipers have and the entertainment value that watching their gameplays and montages has. If sniping and getting gameplays/montage clips was so easy why would millions of people watch and like these montages? Clearly it's because people recognise just how special those kinds of clips are and admire the skill that it takes to pull of streaks like that. Clans like FaZeClan, OpTic Gaming, Darth, Obey, Soar etc and players like zzirGrizz, IReapZz, Pamaj, Spratty, FaZe Kross have many millions of subscribers between them and are a key part of creating the hype around these games prior to them coming out and maintaining that interest of players the world over. The reality is that many of these well known players are going to get fed up of their play style being squeezed out of the game and having to suffer worse and worse odds against casual players using way more powerful weapons. It boggles my mind as to why you as a company would want to lose this loyal and returning fan base by squeezing out the play style that they've adopted.

       

      This is especially the case considering that Call of Duty is very soon going to be joined by other next gen FPS games which already pose a threat to its position at the top of the pile. The last thing that the developers need right now is to lose their hardcore loyal fan base to titles like Titanfall, Destiny and others. What you want to be doing at this point is making a game thats fun for ALL different play styles including snipers, not edging out snipers who generate millions of YouTube views in gameplay commentaries and montages and maintaining the enthusiasm around your game.

       

      NERFING SNIPING IS A HORRIBLE DECISION EVEN FROM A BUSINESS POINT OF VIEW.

       

      The Bottom Line

      Sniping is a high risk, high reward strategy in Call of Duty. It is an essential part of the fast paced nature of the game and nerfing sniping makes the game less varied and ultimately hurts the game, the franchise and the fans. The nerf should be reversed.


      TAHAGAMES

      [Removed by Moderator]

        • Re: From the Sniping community to Infinity Ward after the December 23rd Patch. DEVELOPERS PLEASE READ!
          NoLifeKing32

          TL DR did you say anything new at all? I doubt it. The sniper patch did nothing, repeat, nothing. I have no problems killing people with a sniper rifle. Expect the USR to be nerfed further.

          • Re: From the Sniping community to Infinity Ward after the December 23rd Patch. DEVELOPERS PLEASE READ!
            Tactics74

            OP-

            The "game inside the game" that sniping creates is the what they (IW) is trying to remove.

             

            For example: Shotguns are not OP in Ghosts (imo) but if a large group guys started playing for shotgun 'clips' and 'montages' and not making the match the first priority then IW would nerf them too.

             

            So it's not about whether or not the Snipers were OP or not.. it's the 'Sniping game' that they feel needs to end. Heck, look at your title "From the sniping community".. even the segregation inside of your title goes to further validate their decision.

             

            Sorry, but that long very well written post needs to be rewritten to address the pro's of  'the sniping game' and what it can do for the community as a whole.

              • Re: From the Sniping community to Infinity Ward after the December 23rd Patch. DEVELOPERS PLEASE READ!
                TAHA-NASSER

                That's a really interesting point man.

                 

                Thing is there will always be games within a game. I mean loads of people who exclusively use reg guns only care about their KDR and don't play the objective at all....does that mean we somehow start squeezing that kind of player too? When I first started sniping I was too busy just trying to land the shot to play the objective. But now I'm comfortable enough that I always play the objective and win most games (I rage quit a fair bit tho so that brings my win loss down somewhat unfortunately).

                 

                As far as what sniping does for the game as a whole I feel like I addressed that. There's hundreds of thousands if not millions of players out there who play pretty much exclusively for sniping. That's a lot of sales, a lot of DLC downloads and a lot of hype. That can't be bad for the game or the franchise.

                 

                Thanks for your response tho, really nice to know that my ridiculously long post (I get carried away sometimes and can type fast...it's a bad combination LOL) is actually getting read.

                 

                Peace.

              • Re: From the Sniping community to Infinity Ward after the December 23rd Patch. DEVELOPERS PLEASE READ!

                TAHA-NASSER,

                 

                Getting sniped from across the map is one thing. That is a skilled sniper, that is what they are meant to be used for, and that is the player that respect should be given to.

                 

                However, getting sniped by a player walking towards you; who is ten feet ahead and barely aiming down sights, but still gets the kill: this is the annoyance that has brought the sniping nerf into play. It happens too often to be ignored, clearly. There are fundamentals of this game that, granted, cannot be attained in a real-life setting; but quickscoping in an actual battle, in the real world, would launch that rifle straight out of your hands, into your face, or towards the sky above you. Ask any shooter out there if such a thing is possible and they will reply with a swift "absolutely not." That is fact, not personal thoughts or an opinion.

                 

                Quickscoping. A simple word causing a multitude of problems for the Call of Duty community. Snipers are not special, they do not have their own little congregation within the game. We are all CoD players. We are all the same community. Do not place a barrier between "us" and "you". We are, all of us, gamers. "The sniping community", in all honesty, does not exist. Neither does the Assault rifle community, the SMG community, and etc.

                 

                Also, you speak for your supposed "community", right? Have you spoken to each sniper individually? Have you interviewed every single sniping player so thoroughly that you can confidently say you are the voice of them all? This entry of yours, though well written and well thought out, is merely that: your thoughts. Talking to a few snipers does not equate to listening to all of them, so this argument of yours is null and void in a manner of factual evidence and argument.

                 

                A quickscoper may not always be at the top of the leader-boards, I'll give you that; however, the gaming experience can be ruined for other players. You must realize this much at least? Seeing that kill-cam can bring out anger and turn a person to hate what they are playing. This should never happen. We are supposed to be having fun playing this video game. Fun. Not worrying about whether or not the sniper is prancing around the map.

                 

                Obviously, I am pro-nerf. This is my opinion and I will state that here and now. I sincerely hope that what was said in my reply does not seem like some personal vendetta against you, because it isn't. Your guns, from what Infinity Ward has said, will not be weakened and I do not want that for you either. Your shots will still be powerful as is expected of a sniper rifle, but you will not be able to lift the massive weapon and use it like a shotgun at close range. These are not CQC (close quarters combat) weapons and should not be used as such.

                 

                Best of luck,

                Sky

                  • Re: From the Sniping community to Infinity Ward after the December 23rd Patch. DEVELOPERS PLEASE READ!
                    TAHA-NASSER

                    What you wrote just isn't true.

                     

                    I'm not just a sniper, I use reg guns too (check my YT page TAHAGAMES if you don't believe me) and I know for a fact that reg guns are now TOTALLY dominant over everything else in this game. Before snipers provided somewhat of a balance to how ridiculous OP assault rifles were, but now the most useless, idiotic and inexperienced player can crap all over me (a former competetive player who has played the game hardcore since CoD4 on console and PC) just because he is using some magic spray and pray gun that allows him to miss a dozen shots and still get the kill before I can bring my scope up.

                     

                    The reason that you are pro nerf is because you don't want anyone else being able to kill you. As I wrote in my original post, assault rifle users who winge and complain about the gun that other people use should maybe think for a second and realise that there may have been more to them losing the gunfight than simply what the other guy was using. Is it possible that he was faster than you or is that inconceivable? Is it possible that he is more experienced, in a more powerful position on the map, or read the spawns better?

                     

                    I'm tired of people behaving like their playstyle is the only one that's valid. I paid for the game too and I also have a right to enjoy it just as much as the whiney tryhards with their Remington R5s and AK-12s.

                      • Re: From the Sniping community to Infinity Ward after the December 23rd Patch. DEVELOPERS PLEASE READ!

                        Look, I meant no disrespect so do not talk to me as if I'm a child. The snipers in our clan have felt the blow just as much as you have. The difference is, that was all they did: sniped. So, their whining usually falls on deaf ears.

                         

                        I never questioned your ability as a player so there's no point in tooting your own horn; Hell, I agreed with you on some points in my previous post. I never brought in my ability as a player so I won't start parading mine. All I will say about my own playstyle is that I have and continue to use all classes in the game; that includes a sniper class. I fancy the Lynx.

                         

                        Now, concerning your comment of me "not wanting to be killed." That's bullshit, plain and simple. In a match, you die. That's what happens and nine times out of ten it's unavoidable. I'm not scared to die in the game, so, please, don't make assumptions. Getting in a gun fight with an SMG, LMG, Shotgun, and AR and losing is one thing. My post only went after the quickscopers who get in gunfights and come out on top. I understand the difficulty it takes to wield a sniper. I am not ignorant to it. Just as you use regular guns, as I said before, I use a sniper depending on the map.

                         

                        You made it personal by pointing your accusations towards me when I made it a point not to go after you. So, no, that is NOT the reason I am pro nerf. Please, do not get all butt hurt about what I said when I clearly stated that it was an opinion that was NOT aimed towards you as a player. I could care less who you are or how good you are, honestly. No, seriously, you could be Syndicate, Ali-A, etc and I would still answer you this way. Anyway, I simply wished to answer your post with an opinion of my own concerning the nerf and so I did.

                         

                        Once again, best of luck,

                        -Sky

                    • Re: From the Sniping community to Infinity Ward after the December 23rd Patch. DEVELOPERS PLEASE READ!
                      phxs72

                      While I can appreciate that you wrote a novel in your OP, I didn't bother to read it.  I've actually used the snipers both pre and post patch.  The patch made nearly no difference to me.  Yes they are slightly different but not enough to have appreciably altered how well one can do with them.  I have used all 4 snipers and the only one that I have trouble getting a kill with is the L115.  Something changed with that gun about a month ago which made hardscoping useless with that gun but that has nothing to do with the 12/23 patch.  I find that I can still QS with the L115 but lined up dead center chest with breath held hardscoping doesn't even get a hitmarker anymore on a guy that's standing still.

                        • Re: From the Sniping community to Infinity Ward after the December 23rd Patch. DEVELOPERS PLEASE READ!
                          TAHA-NASSER

                          If you aren't gonna bother reading what I wrote and aren't actually open to anyone else's point of view then don't waste my time. It's closed minded people who only care about their particular playstyle that are ruining this game

                            • Re: From the Sniping community to Infinity Ward after the December 23rd Patch. DEVELOPERS PLEASE READ!
                              phxs72

                              You are complaining about a patch that had next to no noticeable affect on the weapons.  Exactly how would reading your post that decries the changes as being much more impactful than they are be of any use to anyone.  I have something much better than your post.  I have actual in game experience with the weapons.  I don't need to read someone's oh woe is me complaint about something that I am already quite familiar with to know what my response would be.  Sorry that you find my opinion to be a waste of your time but I think that you already did that by posting such a long post complaining about a minimal change to the snipers.  Perhaps you need to spend a little more time actually using the weapons and a little less time pretending that the sky has fallen.

                               

                              If your playstyle was ruined by these changes then you didn't have a playstyle.  You were already on the edge of being incompetent with a sniper.  I don't say that to be mean but it is what it is.  I don't consider myself to be a great sniper but if someone with my skill level finds the changes to be hardly noticeable in the grand scheme of things then for it to have caused you so much concern can only mean that you either are not good at all with a sniper or you have absolutely no idea how minimal the changes really are because you haven't tried the weapons post patch.  Either way you are in no position to make a credible case for how the changes have done some great harm to the sniper playstyle.

                                • Re: From the Sniping community to Infinity Ward after the December 23rd Patch. DEVELOPERS PLEASE READ!
                                  TAHA-NASSER

                                  You claim the patch had no noticeable effect on the game/sniping when actually it had a huge effect. The only way a person would think it had no effect was if their idea of sniping was camping in a corner of a map with one line of sight left triggering their butt off.

                                   

                                  For the record, I've put in around 40 days of play on CoD since 2006. One of my montages (around 40 clips of quad feeds or better) is currently being edited by a 100k+ editor. I'm a pretty decent sniper so when I say they ruined weapon balance with their stupid nerfs, I know what I'm talking about.

                                   

                                  Heck don't trust just me look at the play stats for Ghosts. Ever since december the game has been bleeding players into previous titles. Most major players only play the game now to keep getting views but most montage makers have moved back to better CoDs. They've made the game a pop piece of rubbish, and made it insanely easy for any noob with an MTAR to utterly dominate far better players using other weapon classes.

                                   

                                  I don't even play this horrible game anymore, I went back to BO2 in January. Keep giving IW your money. I'm sure they love being able to make games with broken spawns, no concept of weapon balance and absurd game breaking perks whilst still having people like you desperate to buy things from them. LOL

                            • Re: From the Sniping community to Infinity Ward after the December 23rd Patch. DEVELOPERS PLEASE READ!
                              LiutenantTrillanes

                              Hi there man! In my opinion, the developers are trying to do their best to make things up for Ghosts. Sure it's a enjoyable game and I understand that others find it bad. In my opinion, I know it's hard to please everyone in the COD community but, I hope there's a common ground of any means that the parties may be able address feedback that's needed to be considered. Developing a game is not easy as it gets and it's not really an instant wish like magic to address all issues when it comes to game play balance. It's a good read by the way man and I do hope Infinity Ward may be able to consider your post as well as consider the thoughts of other players for this. Cheers!