Its a lag lottery rather than a game of skill

Call of Duty Ghosts XBOX 360

Re: Its a lag lottery rather than a game of skill

in reply to Starbuck_OS

Starbuck_OS wrote:





p.s I understand how lag compensation works,


Reading stuff you have written I would have to say with respect nope you don't,

Pulling up descriptions of another game and engines method of "lag comp" whilst giving a basic rough idea doesn't really explain cod .

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Re: Its a lag lottery rather than a game of skill

in reply to Maccabi

maccabi wrote:




Starbuck_OS wrote:





p.s I understand how lag compensation works,



Reading stuff you have written I would have to say with respect nope you don't,


Pulling up descriptions of another game and engines method of "lag comp" whilst giving a basic rough idea doesn't really explain cod .


I don't think anyone can really understands how the lag compensation or network code works, other than the developers, and from experience, they may not even fully understand it, if they have new devs and are using old code

All we can do is make some assumptions. I used to develop games software, so out of interest and to better understand the lag issues I've been through the Quake III engine code, that COD is supposed to be based on (Quake 3 Source Code Review: Architecture, id-Software/Quake-III-Arena · GitHub). But even if the current generation of COD is based on the original Quake III engine, it will have been heavily modified and may no longer be recognizable or have the same characteristics.

If COD is based on the Quake III engine, should they not be including the GPL license with the software?

Maybe they should just opensource their engine and network code, and let the community fix it, while they focus on game play, maps, graphics, DLCs and micro DLCs, etc.

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Re: Its a lag lottery rather than a game of skill

in reply to britainjohhny

johhnybritain wrote:




maccabi wrote:




Starbuck_OS wrote:





p.s I understand how lag compensation works,



Reading stuff you have written I would have to say with respect nope you don't,


Pulling up descriptions of another game and engines method of "lag comp" whilst giving a basic rough idea doesn't really explain cod .



I don't think anyone can really understands how the lag compensation or network code works, other than the developers, and from experience, they may not even fully understand it, if they have new devs and are using old code



All we can do is make some assumptions. I used to develop games software, so out of interest and to better understand the lag issues I've been through the Quake III engine code, that COD is supposed to be based on (Quake 3 Source Code Review: Architecture, id-Software/Quake-III-Arena · GitHub). But even if the current generation of COD is based on the original Quake III engine, it will have been heavily modified and may no longer be recognizable or have the same characteristics.



If COD is based on the Quake III engine, should they not be including the GPL license with the software?



Maybe they should just opensource their engine and network code, and let the community fix it, while they focus on game play, maps, graphics, DLCs and micro DLCs, etc.


I really wish people would stop linking stuff like this it doesn't help anyone and further confuses already confused people.. and especially throwing in the cod uses an old quake engine line, the engine is so far removed from the old quake engine now its its own engine. there is basically no quake engine proprietary code left in the engine cod now uses.


The netcode is easy to understand , the problem is no one wants to actually accept the facts as there is so much misinformation and assumptions and myths surrounding "lag comp"


I will say the same thing i have been saying for years.. If the code is "broken" how comes seeing as we all run the SAME code a lot of us have no issues?



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Re: Its a lag lottery rather than a game of skill

in reply to Maccabi

maccabi wrote:




johhnybritain wrote:




maccabi wrote:




Starbuck_OS wrote:





p.s I understand how lag compensation works,



Reading stuff you have written I would have to say with respect nope you don't,


Pulling up descriptions of another game and engines method of "lag comp" whilst giving a basic rough idea doesn't really explain cod .



I don't think anyone can really understands how the lag compensation or network code works, other than the developers, and from experience, they may not even fully understand it, if they have new devs and are using old code



All we can do is make some assumptions. I used to develop games software, so out of interest and to better understand the lag issues I've been through the Quake III engine code, that COD is supposed to be based on (Quake 3 Source Code Review: Architecture, id-Software/Quake-III-Arena · GitHub). But even if the current generation of COD is based on the original Quake III engine, it will have been heavily modified and may no longer be recognizable or have the same characteristics.



If COD is based on the Quake III engine, should they not be including the GPL license with the software?



Maybe they should just opensource their engine and network code, and let the community fix it, while they focus on game play, maps, graphics, DLCs and micro DLCs, etc.



I really wish people would stop linking stuff like this it doesn't help anyone and further confuses already confused people.. and especially throwing in the cod uses an old quake engine line, the engine is so far removed from the old quake engine now its its own engine. there is basically no quake engine proprietary code left in the engine cod now uses.




The netcode is easy to understand , the problem is no one wants to actually accept the facts as there is so much misinformation and assumptions and myths surrounding "lag comp"




I will say the same thing i have been saying for years.. If the code is "broken" how comes seeing as we all run the SAME code a lot of us have no issues?







"Misinformation and assumptions and myths" - how do you know "the engine is so far removed from the old quake engine"? how do you know "the netcode is easy to understand"?

Previous post was pointing out that we cannot know these, only developers that work on the code can know for sure. All we can do is describe our experience, and hope the developers listen to the feedback.

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Re: Its a lag lottery rather than a game of skill

in reply to ush285t

There are some here that have spoken with the devs and heard it directly from them as to what the game engine is like now. That is is not the original anymore, that it is a heavily modified engine and thus no longer the same. It has been tweaked and modified several times. Just not an entire new engine wrote from scratch. The netcode has not really changed in general since the very first online fps games ever made. It has been tweaked over time but not really ever completely rewritten to something brand new.

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Re: Its a lag lottery rather than a game of skill

in reply to trialstardragon

trialstardragon wrote:



There are some here that have spoken with the devs and heard it directly from them as to what the game engine is like now. That is is not the original anymore, that it is a heavily modified engine and thus no longer the same. It has been tweaked and modified several times. Just not an entire new engine wrote from scratch. The netcode has not really changed in general since the very first online fps games ever made. It has been tweaked over time but not really ever completely rewritten to something brand new.


I find it somewhat humorous and sad that you claim to have vast knowledge of games and how they work, yet you haven't got a clue what the "engine" is.

Protip: The engine is all the software required to code the game, as in make it.

Anyways, why are we using decades old technology for online multiplayer? We should have been on dedicated servers years ago. Host selection is by far the biggest issue and has been for quite some time, they should gather more data and develop better host records for players if we're going to remain in the stone age.

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Re: Its a lag lottery rather than a game of skill

in reply to AntiGov

Actually that is not entirely true, you can make many parts of the game outside of the engine itself. The engine is what runs the codes and all the different parts to make the game do what it does. So no you do not need the engine itself to make the game only to run it. I can develop and make 3d character models of players, weapons, equipment, everything you see in the world outside of the game engine itself. And use another software suite to do all the sound editing, then use another suite to write the code for how they work and then import all of that to a game engine and change the triggers and other variables to make the game work how i want. You don't have to make it all from the very same singular program. In truth most devs usually use more than one software suite when making a game. The engine is nothing more than what runs it all once it is compiled together in a common location of files.

The engine in a car does not make the car it only powers the car to let it move. You can have a boat with out an engine and it is still a boat. A plane with out an engine and it still a plane. The game engine is just one many parts needed to make the game work.

Dedicates servers do not solve all the problems that most people like to claim or think or believe. They never have and never will. Even BF which uses dedicated servers still has lag problems, it still has hit detection problems, you can still see rubberbanding and teleporting. All dedicated servers do is eliminate host migration, and lower the chances of stat padding from dashboarding.

They really cant gather that data for a hosts performance may change game to game, day to day depending upon their internal and external network and the internet itself. I can easily host 4v4 games with my connection but cannot a 6v6. Yet it has chosen me as host in 6v6 matches before. Which leads to laggy games for other players.

IW/3arc would both have to completely rewrite the code to use dedicated servers and provide server browsers for anyone to see any real benefit. With out the server browser being on dedicated servers could actually end up worse than listen servers if too far away from the server farm.

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Re: Its a lag lottery rather than a game of skill

in reply to trialstardragon

A car, boat, or plane engine is nothing like an engine for a game. Components are made outside the engine yet the engine is where it all comes together, somewhat like you said. The engine must first be developed in order to make the game, it provides the tools to actually code the game. I wish I could find the link from Bungie.net, they explained the (lol) reach engine in depth and to be quite honest that's how came to know what the engine does.

Dedicated servers would place the problems more on the player connection and not the netcode. They should have had a large server farm years ago after the success of CoD 4, yes they're expensive to set up and maintain but the the foundation would have been made. Dedicated servers would also allow developers a stable data pool and they could develop better algorithms for possible listen servers. The Xbone is currently unplayable do to a tiny population and poor host selection for the listen servers, that's what happens when you don't take the time to actually develop algorithms for host selection.

Server browsers are well and good but options for limiting your search area would be much better. Setting the min/max would yield a much faster result.

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Re: Its a lag lottery rather than a game of skill

in reply to AntiGov

Yes they could have but they are out for money not player happiness overall. so they were not going to waste the initial start up fee's just to make a few players happier when most did not know any difference on consoles back during those times.

I do agree that if done properly dedi's can solve many problems; but not all of them the game has. But I doubt until the game is made only for x1 and using the cloud servers will there ever really be any improvement in the games performance for players online. 3arc/IW are just not going to do it for the older consoles, it is not worth it to them from a monetary standpoint. So any wish/desire/demand/request for it will basically fall on deaf ears for the 360 will be phased out in a few years like the original xbox was and not supported.

though players are still buying games for it I bet more game developers will begin to only develop their game for the next console by next year. I actually will be surprised if there is even a CoD for 2015 on the 360 developed.

Min/max options are a very good thing but if the player does not understand them can lead to hard to find games at times. Which is why a server browser is needed as well so players can see what is available with what players and then make a choice to connect or not.

Overall I agree with what you said in this post compared to the how much we have but heads in the past.. go figure.. had to happen at one point eh?

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Re: Its a lag lottery rather than a game of skill

in reply to ush285t

ush285t wrote:






"Misinformation and assumptions and myths" - how do you know "the engine is so far removed from the old quake engine"? how do you know "the netcode is easy to understand"?



Previous post was pointing out that we cannot know these, only developers that work on the code can know for sure. All we can do is describe our experience, and hope the developers listen to the feedback.


Well we can, first off a good few cod games back the engine changed its name to the iw engine.. why because as the DEVS explained there was no quake engine proprietary code left in it so it could be renamed,,, secondly unless i missed it ID never sued any cod dev for not using the name quake engine in any following cod

and yes the netcode is easy to understand, I've linked a video that clearly explains it, the problem is people dont WANT to accept anything that disagrees with there viewpoint.

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