Map Design - Look at older titles - Allow Multiple Playstyles.

World War II General Discussion

One thing that has really annoyed me in previous CoD titles such IW, BO3, BO2 etc (probably all recent titles except Ghosts) is that they designed the maps in order to keep continual flow of battle which in my opinion is good when done correctly. However it rarely seems to be done well. Quite often you'll find corners, doorways and other areas that provide cover or defensive tactics barred off with plants, shopping carts, debris etc.

 

I've been playing MW Remastered a lot recently and I noticed how they designed the maps without thinking about camping or defensive tactics which makes the maps a joy to play. I was playing TDM and found myself actually taking the game slowly and doing really well which considering the maps have been designed for run and gun these last 3-4 COD titles, its refreshing. You actually have buildings that don't have 12 ways to get in. You have the ability to use corners, doorways etc. You also have a lot of dead ends e.g. you walk down an alleyway and find you have to go back because you've reached a dead end which obviously all maps have barriers but to actually be able to use an alleyway or a dead end to your advantage in games is refreshing. 

 

What I'm asking for with these maps is for Devs to go back and look at titles from COD4-MW3 etc and really look to see what made them great to play. A lot of these maps catered to a multitude of playstyles which I feel the last few games have been lacking. 

 

tl;dr 

Don't put random crap in places to prevent people being able to use defensive tactics 

Allow for all playstyles from the humble sniper, to the tent pitching camper, to the headless chicken run and gun lol. 

Dead1yDerri#5602853
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22 REPLIES 22

So you want more camping spots?...myself being an aggressive rushing type player since MW2, I found that the playstyles you mentioned are and have always been viable...(sniping maybe not as much, but I don't think it's the maps fault, but rather the boost jumping)..I think in every title that I've played they give more than enough crates, cars, barrels, doorways, and corners to have a tea party behind..and having multiple entrances to enclosed areas is always a GOOD thing, keeps the game flowing IMO...

James8421
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Personally I just want maps that aren't like the ones we've currently got which go out of their way to prevent camping and defensive playstyles. Right now its fair to say that maps are designed for always run and gun and fast action as opposed to allow for multiple play styles. Especially when you look back at COD4, WAW, MW2, BO1 etc. 

Dead1yDerri#5602853
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Registered: ‎25-09-2011

@Dead1yDerri#5602853 wrote:

Personally I just want maps that aren't like the ones we've currently got which go out of their way to prevent camping and defensive playstyles. Right now its fair to say that maps are designed for always run and gun and fast action as opposed to allow for multiple play styles. Especially when you look back at COD4, WAW, MW2, BO1 etc. 


 

But I don't think they are going out their way to prevent camping...you said ghosts was the last game that had good maps, or whatever...well, what came after that? Advanced movement..makes it easier to get a jump on people camping, especially BO3 and IW..to me map design has been very similar (Treyarch being my favorite..), but with the ability to boost jump around corners and such, it makes it a little tougher to play the "camper" role..that's all I'm getting at..basically it's not map design necessarily, but the advanced movement system, which brings on faster game play..and IMO is a good thing..but I can still dig a slower pace like it used to be (TBH my fav CoDs are the ones prior to Ghosts) still say that they have and always have had plenty of spots to take cover, or camp..

James8421
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Registered: ‎03-03-2014

@James8421 wrote:

@Dead1yDerri#5602853 wrote:

Personally I just want maps that aren't like the ones we've currently got which go out of their way to prevent camping and defensive playstyles. Right now its fair to say that maps are designed for always run and gun and fast action as opposed to allow for multiple play styles. Especially when you look back at COD4, WAW, MW2, BO1 etc. 


 

But I don't think they are going out their way to prevent camping...you said ghosts was the last game that had good maps, or whatever...well, what came after that? Advanced movement..makes it easier to get a jump on people camping, especially BO3 and IW..to me map design has been very similar (Treyarch being my favorite..), but with the ability to boost jump around corners and such, it makes it a little tougher to play the "camper" role..that's all I'm getting at..basically it's not map design necessarily, but the advanced movement system, which brings on faster game play..and IMO is a good thing..but I can still dig a slower pace like it used to be (TBH my fav CoDs are the ones prior to Ghosts) still say that they have and always have had plenty of spots to take cover, or camp..


I would have to disagree with what you've siad here. Its quite clear that even games without advance movement started to do this. If you look at Black Ops 2 - all the maps were designed for short range, run and gun paced movement. For example Ghost was only activated while moving. A lot of the maps had only low cover to prevent the ability to use cover effectively (probably to avoid headglitch spots) and they shoved a lot of random object like plant pots in corners to avoid people camping. 

 

However in that same game when the added maps like Firing Range back into it from BO1 you could see the differances in design. 

 

A good example of having lack of diversity is that maps like Turbine had so much clutter around the map, that even though it was one of the largest maps in the game, you wouldn't do badly if you packed a close range SMG or short to medium range AR. Snipers in that game couldn't traditionally snipe, instead they had to battle it out close range with fast paced sniping. 

 

The diversity in recent games, probably with the exception of Ghosts.....has been really poor. Look at IW....its just all hort range. 

Dead1yDerri#5602853
Likes: 498
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Registered: ‎25-09-2011

@Dead1yDerri#5602853 wrote:


I would have to disagree with what you've siad here. Its quite clear that even games without advance movement started to do this. If you look at Black Ops 2 - all the maps were designed for short range, run and gun paced movement. For example Ghost was only activated while moving. A lot of the maps had only low cover to prevent the ability to use cover effectively (probably to avoid headglitch spots) and they shoved a lot of random object like plant pots in corners to avoid people camping. 

 

However in that same game when the added maps like Firing Range back into it from BO1 you could see the differances in design. 

 

A good example of having lack of diversity is that maps like Turbine had so much clutter around the map, that even though it was one of the largest maps in the game, you wouldn't do badly if you packed a close range SMG or short to medium range AR. Snipers in that game couldn't traditionally snipe, instead they had to battle it out close range with fast paced sniping. 

 

The diversity in recent games, probably with the exception of Ghosts.....has been really poor. Look at IW....its just all hort range. 


Oh yeah, we'll be in disagreement on this one...not a bad thing either at all..I think maybe we just have had different experiences with the games, perhaps our playstyles are different..idk..I'm only speaking for what I picked up on in your OP..stuff being in the way of good hiding spots..my only argument to that is I think they do a good enough job with that, I can't think of a single map where there's a lack of things to hop behind for cover..if we're discussing map design as a whole, that's another topic and I'd have more to say..they've been hit or miss for me..

 

I also think, from my experience, that BO2 was a good game to snipe on..to me, other than maybe Ghosts, BO2 was the last title that I felt comfortable sniping the traditional way..I'm not sure what you meant about Turbine..that map was excellent for sniping..and bringing an SMG on a large map and doing good? Are you supposed to do bad? Not everyone snipes on large maps..been that way since forever..

 

Don't get what you're getting at with Firing Range..what separates that map from current ones? Has 3 lanes with multiple indoor areas, and plenty of outdoor containers for cover..basically sums up the majority of CoD maps..

 

Ghosts was a fun game most of the time..it did, on some maps, play too slow IMO..I have never had more matches end from the time limit than in Ghosts..I imagine map design is a bit tricky do get right..keep the flow, while keeping it from a cluster f**k bloodbath..with the exception of the usual one or two maps they put in just for that..

 

I still think it's advanced movement that has created a rise in the number of people that play run n gun style..however you can still snipe (not as fun IMO), and you can most certainly camp..I deal with campers almost every match...any playstyle is viable IMO..it's not the maps fault, but rather the players fault..which will most likely change once WWII comes out and the game slows down again..

James8421
Likes: 989
Posts: 1752
Registered: ‎03-03-2014

@James8421 wrote:

@Dead1yDerri#5602853 wrote:

Personally I just want maps that aren't like the ones we've currently got which go out of their way to prevent camping and defensive playstyles. Right now its fair to say that maps are designed for always run and gun and fast action as opposed to allow for multiple play styles. Especially when you look back at COD4, WAW, MW2, BO1 etc. 


 

But I don't think they are going out their way to prevent camping...you said ghosts was the last game that had good maps, or whatever...well, what came after that? Advanced movement..makes it easier to get a jump on people camping, especially BO3 and IW..to me map design has been very similar (Treyarch being my favorite..), but with the ability to boost jump around corners and such, it makes it a little tougher to play the "camper" role..that's all I'm getting at..basically it's not map design necessarily, but the advanced movement system, which brings on faster game play..and IMO is a good thing..but I can still dig a slower pace like it used to be (TBH my fav CoDs are the ones prior to Ghosts) still say that they have and always have had plenty of spots to take cover, or camp..


 

The devs have absolutely emphasized pace through map design and game mechanics in the last few titles.

 

The maps are small to medium , largely bright and middle of the day, with little to no changes in terrain. They're just boxy. Players stand out even at a distance with the bright colors.

 

How much do they listen to the "camping sucks" crowd? Perks that only work while moving. A myriad of attachments that illuminatwe an opponent.

 

I want them to not worry about those silly things but rather the things that truly break MP.

 

  1. Host selecton
  2. Match-making

 

That's my opinion but it should be yours ;-),
RAN
RAN Kismet Level 75
Likes: 4553
Posts: 15296
Registered: ‎23-05-2011

@RAN Kismet wrote:


 

The devs have absolutely emphasized pace through map design and game mechanics in the last few titles.

 

The maps are small to medium , largely bright and middle of the day, with little to no changes in terrain. They're just boxy. Players stand out even at a distance with the bright colors.

 

How much do they listen to the "camping sucks" crowd? Perks that only work while moving. A myriad of attachments that illuminatwe an opponent.

 

I want them to not worry about those silly things but rather the things that truly break MP.

 

  1. Host selecton
  2. Match-making

 


 

I already mentioned advanced movements being responsible for more rushing, which increases the pace of the game, which is a game mechanic, so I agree with that....still don't see how or what map design has to do with it..they are set up with the same basics as every other CoD..I think spawn points have more impact on pace than design..

 

A lot of maps are small to medium, but that's really only IW..also with advanced movement, it makes it easier to get back into the action after a spawn, which in turn makes some maps feel smaller...

 

How much do they listen to anti camper crowd? LOL, not enough apparently...for every one person that says camping can't be done anymore, there's at least three that complain about campers...and using the single ghost perk as an argument for the games anti camping intent is weak IMO..first, it only works when a UAV is up..the other 7-8 minutes out of 10 in a match you can safely camp..second, now that it works like it used to, can I say they are going pro camper now? Also illuminating attachments can be used just as effectively by campers, as they can by anyone else...I have never thought of those as anti camper, but quite the opposite..

 

 

I fully agree with your last statement...I would hope that Activision is dedicating most of this time right now in figuring out connections, matchmaking, and team balancing, before they release WWII..that's the most important issue I have with IW..

 

James8421
Likes: 989
Posts: 1752
Registered: ‎03-03-2014

@James8421 wrote:

@RAN Kismet wrote:


 

The devs have absolutely emphasized pace through map design and game mechanics in the last few titles.

 

The maps are small to medium , largely bright and middle of the day, with little to no changes in terrain. They're just boxy. Players stand out even at a distance with the bright colors.

 

How much do they listen to the "camping sucks" crowd? Perks that only work while moving. A myriad of attachments that illuminatwe an opponent.

 

I want them to not worry about those silly things but rather the things that truly break MP.

 

  1. Host selecton
  2. Match-making

 


 

I already mentioned advanced movements being responsible for more rushing, which increases the pace of the game, which is a game mechanic, so I agree with that....still don't see how or what map design has to do with it..they are set up with the same basics as every other CoD..I think spawn points have more impact on pace than design..

 

A lot of maps are small to medium, but that's really only IW..also with advanced movement, it makes it easier to get back into the action after a spawn, which in turn makes some maps feel smaller...

 

How much do they listen to anti camper crowd? LOL, not enough apparently...for every one person that says camping can't be done anymore, there's at least three that complain about campers...and using the single ghost perk as an argument for the games anti camping intent is weak IMO..first, it only works when a UAV is up..the other 7-8 minutes out of 10 in a match you can safely camp..second, now that it works like it used to, can I say they are going pro camper now? Also illuminating attachments can be used just as effectively by campers, as they can by anyone else...I have never thought of those as anti camper, but quite the opposite..

 

 

I fully agree with your last statement...I would hope that Activision is dedicating most of this time right now in figuring out connections, matchmaking, and team balancing, before they release WWII..that's the most important issue I have with IW..

 


 

Map design... in older CODs, they were largely three lane map design (regardless of size). A player with solid map knowledge could hold down one lane, be alert to a second, and know the one true flank route. Now, maps have multiple ingress points for a given location (and multiple lanes) to limit camping. Even with sci-fi movement, the maps are smaller. Is there even one map the size of Overgrown or Seelow in the past three CODs? Nope.

 

Attachments... yes, campers can use the illumination attachments as well. Main difference is they are stationary versus moving. The attachment itself is there to help those that can't figure out how find an enemy (and I find silly). But consider how a bullet trail has been added to snipers. They were added for one reason... to give a direction for enemy fire.

 

Perks... go back to COD4. UAV Jammer. Kept you off the radar. Period. Core platers didn't complain too much because they were busy complaining about Jugg or Stopping Power. In HC nearly everyone ran it. In BO, you had Ghost... which every flipped out about because it did more than one thing and made camping "easy". Again, HC players could have mostly cared less. As a result, perks to keep you hidden have been broken up and require you to move (in some cases) inorder for it work.  After all, we can't not have dots on a map or streak that doesn't get a ton of kills.

 

... and...

 

Combine the hate for nades and toobs (IW has nerfed them so bad to be uselss) you have removed the best way to deal with said dreaded camper.

 

End of the day... to me... the real issue has been the over-reliance on dots on a mini-map or gimmicky attachments to show where an enemy is versus OP eyeballs.

 

A lot of this will moot in CODWW2... I hope.

 

Just crossing fingers they really get host selection and matchmaking right.

That's my opinion but it should be yours ;-),
RAN
RAN Kismet Level 75
Likes: 4553
Posts: 15296
Registered: ‎23-05-2011

@James8421 wrote:

@RAN Kismet wrote:


 

The devs have absolutely emphasized pace through map design and game mechanics in the last few titles.

 

The maps are small to medium , largely bright and middle of the day, with little to no changes in terrain. They're just boxy. Players stand out even at a distance with the bright colors.

 

How much do they listen to the "camping sucks" crowd? Perks that only work while moving. A myriad of attachments that illuminatwe an opponent.

 

I want them to not worry about those silly things but rather the things that truly break MP.

 

  1. Host selecton
  2. Match-making

 


 

I already mentioned advanced movements being responsible for more rushing, which increases the pace of the game, which is a game mechanic, so I agree with that....still don't see how or what map design has to do with it..they are set up with the same basics as every other CoD..I think spawn points have more impact on pace than design..

 

A lot of maps are small to medium, but that's really only IW..also with advanced movement, it makes it easier to get back into the action after a spawn, which in turn makes some maps feel smaller...

 

How much do they listen to anti camper crowd? LOL, not enough apparently...for every one person that says camping can't be done anymore, there's at least three that complain about campers...and using the single ghost perk as an argument for the games anti camping intent is weak IMO..first, it only works when a UAV is up..the other 7-8 minutes out of 10 in a match you can safely camp..second, now that it works like it used to, can I say they are going pro camper now? Also illuminating attachments can be used just as effectively by campers, as they can by anyone else...I have never thought of those as anti camper, but quite the opposite..

 

 

I fully agree with your last statement...I would hope that Activision is dedicating most of this time right now in figuring out connections, matchmaking, and team balancing, before they release WWII..that's the most important issue I have with IW..

 


There's a huge difference in maps since bo2. Huge. Back in the day they had rooms that had one entry.  Nowadays there are at least 3 to every room. There used to be 3 lanes. Now there are 3 lanes with 4 lanes of intersecting cross traffic so there's almost no way to tactically hold an area. 

There used to be a thing called map control that was a huge asset to a good player. Now it's run from one spawn to the next and hope to pick a few people off before they take a step.

There has been a pretty big anti "camping" push for quote some time. It can still be done, but the last few games have definitely leaned toward catering to rushers.

 

He'll, even the remake maps they put in the dlc, people complain because they are "too big" and people just "camp". I can't even imagine those people even playing cod before bo2. 

You are right though that there are a lot of people who complain about campers. And I bet that number goes way up this year. But it's not even close to the numbers during bo2 and before.  But, the forums were packed then, and cod was in its prime. Maybe going back to ww2 will bring back some of the more tactical players that have been pushed away by the last few titles. The more players the better imo. Even if they are those dirty dirty campers..

gotsomestars Level 75
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