19 Replies Latest reply on Mar 12, 2013 5:28 PM by stokoe1011 RSS

    petition for removing lag compensation

      Hello everybody of mw3,


      Let me introduce myself, im a wii plaayer, and even we are experiencing so much lag thanks to the lag compensation. Lets all like this and post comment that you signed to get it removed!!!




      Thank you for reading and i hope to see some support!




        • Test #1
          Re: petition for removing lag compensation

          It cannot be removed.  It's been in every COD since COD was derived from the QUAKE engine.  Every FPS has it.  Yes, even games with dedicated servers have it.  You could not play over the internet without it.


          That said,  it CAN be fixed.  It can work better than it does.  Especially for the host, where it's awful in MW3.


          Please stop posting these threads about removing lag comp.  They will be ignored by the devs (as they know they are pointless and ignorant) and will perpetuate bad information among the uninformed.

          Last Edited: Mar 11, 2012 12:18 AM
            • Test #1
              Re: petition for removing lag compensation

              Don't embarass yourself.


              It was not present till MW2, and it was only activated in lobbies with high ping.


              Starting at Blac Ops, it was enabled at all times.


              It is not necessary at all.


              The lag compensation simply adds artificial latency to players who normally would have great time, because someone else is lagging.
              AND to make matters worse, it is clearly bugged in at least one way:
              It does not give those players who get artificial latency a fair chance against those who actually lag.

              I had 25/18 mb/s lines in my previous appartment, ALWAYS hosted, and could NEVER hit anyone in Black Ops.


              In my time as a Counter-Strike player, which didn't have any lag compensation at all, all the serious (mainstream) servers had tick 80 or 90, meaning everyone with a ping  over 80 or 90 would be kicked.

              The engine actually kept the game updated, and you NEVER fired 6 rounds only to have one or zero of those shots actually making it into the game world when you had 30 ping or was the host.


              Which is the main problem.
              There is evidence that the delay some people experience is almost half a second behind what they see on their screen.

              I have tons myself:


              Firing at 6 rounds per second with my Mk14, that means roughly one shot fired every 0.18 seconds.
              When I get killed in a confrontation, one of my shots missing means a delay equal to of 0 - 360 ping.
              (The host knows if I'm dead once it recieves all the player data, and the death-sentence is a calculation that is made on the host, meaning the delay between your death on the host and your death on your console or computer is equal to your delay x2.


              Keep in mind that the stuff you see on the screen also is half your ping away from the game reality, so the effective delay is always half the ping, or at the least SHOULD be half your ping.


              At 90 ping, what you see on your screen is roughly 0,045 seconds behind what happens on the host machine.
              It also takes 0,045 seconds for the host to recieve your actions, and likely some milliseconds to process the information, so let's say 0,05 seconds.


              If everyone in a lobby has 90 ping, everyone's effective delay is only 0,045 seconds in a well-coded engine.


              0,000 Game starts on the host
              0,050 game starts on your client and you start running
              0,010 you start running on the host.
              4,000 you spot an enemy
              4,002 your enemy with slower framerate on his TV spots you because he lost one frame you'd be in due to having a 50 HZ TV instead of 100.

              4,150 you fire from the hip with an M4
              4,172 your enemy fires from the hip on his TV
              4,200 your first shot misses, and the host either responds by telling you it was a miss, or your client reads it from the host's data stream by checking your shot compared to the enemy position at that time and gives you a miss in real-time at this exact point (in a well-coded game; good server hit prediction -- where the host only confirms kills and confirms your hits to tell the other players that you hit them at this point)
              4,222 Your enemy's first shot hits on the server and sends you the unfortunate message, and congratulates your killer

              4,227 Your second shot is fired

              4,270 If the host has to actually check if you hit before responding and telling you if you hit instead of letting your client figure it out itself based on the host's data stream at the time of your shooting, this is the time you will be notified of your miss
              4,272 You're officially dead on your client side and your enemy is rejoycing.

              Notice how you only managed to fire one shot inbetween the delays at a relatively high ping?


              How can I fire 7 rounds and have 5 disappear?

              That is 4x 0,077 seconds plus 0-0,077 seconds right there; between 0,3 and 0,38 seconds of the events on my screen pulled out of the game reality, comparable to 600 and 760 effective ping in counter-strike.

              Last Edited: Mar 11, 2012 7:17 AM
                • Test #1
                  Re: petition for removing lag compensation

                  adw1983 wrote:


                  Don't embarass yourself.


                  It was not present till MW2, and it was only activated in lobbies with high ping.


                  Starting at Blac Ops, it was enabled at all times.


                  It is not necessary at all.

                  Somehow I think the irony of your reply here will escape you.


                  just as an fyi you're wrong Zartfuldgr is correct.

                  Last Edited: Mar 11, 2012 5:54 AM
                    • Test #1
                      Re: petition for removing lag compensation

                      My favorite part is no one is bad, they never got out played its always "lag comp"

                      Last Edited: Mar 11, 2012 6:04 AM
                      • Test #1
                        Re: petition for removing lag compensation

                        Well, whatever happened, the problems started in MW2.

                        The hosts always had advantages in CoD4 and WaW.


                        That changed dramatically with high ping when hosting in MW2.
                        In black ops, I had to pull the ethernet cable cable and enfore a moderate NAT on wireless before the game was playable.


                        In my new house, I prefer playing with wireless because wiring causes me to become host, and hosting is extremely bad for my performance.


                        Playing CoD4 again, and I **** as the host when I have the cable plugged in,


                        Something was definately "improved" between CoD4 and MW2, because I ONLY experienced the following when americans were hosting in CoD4:


                        On the killcam, he RUNS around the corner, THEN sees you, THEN aims down the sight and THEN fires.
                        That is human reaction time + sprint-to-hipfire delay + ADS delay + Time to fire 2 shots with the M16
                        You only had human reaction time as a factor, and barely got time to pull the trigger on your side, and on the killcam you never even pulled the trigger.


                        That ONLY happened when americans and australians were hosting in CoD4 and WaW, me playing in scandinavia.



                        Then in MW2, this happened when I WAS HOSTING versus americans (high ping).
                        Problem is, that happened at random AT ALL TIMES in Black Ops, and ESPECIALLY when I was hosting.

                        My friends living near me refused to play with me because they got screwed over by the delay they recieved when I was hosting on my fibreoptic 25/18 MB/s line, so I had to switch to wireless to avoid hosting before the problems stopped.

                        I quit Black Ops at that point in may last year, disgusted by the fact that MY connection had screwed ME over, and I feared that my good performance after going wireless was making other people unhappy, so I simply quit playing first person shooters till Battlefield 3 came out with it's dedicated servers, and then I switched to MW3 in january because of the piss poor weapon performance.


                        Here I am, with a wireless network, never hosting, only getting screwed over by lag when I have 3 green bars, and I love it.
                        NOT hosting is a blessing.

                        Last Edited: Mar 11, 2012 7:44 AM
                          • Test #1
                            Re: petition for removing lag compensation

                            Guess what, you're completely wrong. Lag compensation was introduced in a patch on CoD4 and has been present ever since.

                            Last Edited: Mar 11, 2012 7:28 AM
                              • Test #1
                                Re: petition for removing lag compensation

                                The game uses hit prediction.

                                Prediction is the notion of the client predicting the effects of the local player's actions without waiting for the server to confirm them. An entity's predicted state is tested against server commands as they arrive until either a match or a mis-match is detected.



                                CoD games apart from CoD3 uses Server hit Prediction.
                                Which means that the players move freely, shoot freely, and get hitmarkers when they hit enemies with bullets once the client can confirm that it's player actually hit -- but only the server can grant a kill, allow grenades and other projectiles to spawn.


                                Rainbow Six games on this generation consoles uses prediction but requires the server to confirm each shot fired, making playing the games a bit strange when coming from Counter-Strike or Call of Duty.
                                Turok used pure server hit detection; The lower the ping, the greater the advantage, period.


                                Server Hit Prediction == Prediction + Lag compensation

                                I think our main problem is the fact that people have started using the phrase "Lag Compensation" when describing the problem I and others used to call "Lag reduction".
                                I did not know "Lag Compensation" was another name for "Hit Prediction", and for that I appoligize.

                                Lag compensation does nothing to reduce network lag, it merely improves hit-detection and builds an essential part of server hit prediction.

                                Fact is, many players myself included, constantly found ourselves half a second behind what the enemy sees starting in MW2.


                                I repeat the classic story:


                                An enemy rounds the corner I know he's about to round.
                                I die.
                                In his game, he rounded the corner.
                                Saw me.

                                Stopped sprinting.
                                Aimed down the sights.
                                Shot me.


                                On my screen: He rounds the corner, I fire as fast as my reflexes allow me and die almost simultaneously as I have fired one, two or three rounds.


                                On the killcam or even the theather mode, I never fire a single shot.


                                Do you have an explaination for the absurd delays we experienced as hosts in MW2, Black Ops and MW3 as well, being half a second behind the enemies who have bad connections AS HOSTS?

                                And for reference, I don't blame anything on bad lag compensation, except absurd latency;
                                When the enemy has time to spot you, stop sprinting, aim down the sights and kill you before you get your first shot off, repeatedly, even though they're scrubs with 0,6 KD ratios.


                                We used to call the problem "lag reduction.

                                Sorry for not actually checking what Lag Compensation is before replying.


                                In any case, the lag compensation -- if it is conventional -- cannot reduce latency, only make the latency appear reduced for players who STILL retain their latency advantages or disadvantages.

                                Last Edited: Mar 11, 2012 9:38 AM
                      • Test #1
                        Re: petition for removing lag compensation

                        Look kids! Someone who doesn't understand what they're talking about!

                        Last Edited: Mar 11, 2012 7:33 AM
                          • Test #1
                            Re: petition for removing lag compensation



                            The description of lag compensation is that we used to call hit prediction, and does not in any way reduce lag for any players, it only make people hit somewhere near what they saw on their screen.

                            Thinking about it, a lag compensation system (the "hit-prediction" part of the "server hit prediction") can easily favor people with high ping if it is set up badly:


                            150 vs 0 ping with bad server hit prediction (or lag compensation if you want to call it that)


                            0.000 Player A rounds the corner and stops sprinting
                            0.020 Player A spots me
                            0.150 Host recieves information about Player A's whereabouts
                            0.150 I learn that player A rounded the corner on my client.
                            0.170 I learn that that player is there
                            0.190 that player presses aim
                            0.300: He is fully aimed with sleight of hand pro and presses fire
                            0.340: I press fire

                            0.365: He has signed my death sentence

                            0.405: My second shot is fired
                            0.450: I die and my first shot is erased.
                            0.470: My third shot would have been fired

                            Add some processing delays, and that is a possible explaination.

                            Last Edited: Mar 11, 2012 9:57 AM
                              • Test #1
                                Re: petition for removing lag compensation



                                Just for fun, because I'm bored lol


                                No disrespect meant, its just to be funny


                                I guess you can't embed videos, thats stupid

                                Last Edited: Mar 11, 2012 10:23 AM
                                  • Test #1
                                    Re: petition for removing lag compensation


                                    A guy shows himself firing 7 rounds that gets pulled out of reality, and in another scene is allowed to spend one second alive after he is killed by a sniper rifle -- in which case it is not his death that is disturbing, but the DELAY between his death and his death on his client


                                    This isn't like an isolated occurence, you know, this is every single game I play(...)


                                    This is video evidence of a delay equal to the delay I have claimed to experience.

                                    At 24 seconds into the video, we see a common scenario.
                                    He rounds a corner, spots an enemy, aims down the sights, and dies after firing 7 rounds. (Zoom in on the ammo count, and count if you don't believe me)

                                    He could, at best, have fired perhaps 0.10 seconds earlier


                                    1: a guy pulling of 7 shots with the ACR on the 360 which takes
                                    0,085 seconds per shot, times 6 shots fired (first shot is fired at 0.00 so the first shot fired at 0.000 is ignored because it starts the count), making it definately 6 shots fired for a minimum delay of 0,51 seconds, not even taking the consoles' lower rate of fire into account.Not one single of his shots are fired in the game world.

                                    Also notice that the enemy spends over 0.4 seconds aquiring aim of our player once he appears in the enemy's screen, and get hitmarkers in front of the player's position, suggesting that the player has come further on the enemy's screen than in the official game world.



                                    Could he have killed that enemy at least half a second earlier?
                                    Times: At 1.2 seconds left in the killcam countdown, the enemy spots our player.
                                    The enemy does not START firing at the player before 0,5 seconds remaining.
                                    On our player's screen, he fires his first shot in the mid 2:18 range, less than 1 second after spotting the enemy.
                                    He fires half a second BEFORE the enemy starts to fire on his screen!
                                    Several, at least 4, of his shots should have been fired, based on these numbers.



                                    Players spot eachother at late 2:18 almost 2:19, and our player fires mid 2:18.
                                    On the killcam, the enemy spends a lot more than a full second killing the player AFTER spotting him at 1.2 seconds remaining on the killcam, aiming at the player at 0,6 seconds remaining and firing at early 0,5 seconds before killing our player.
                                    Keep in mind that this is captured with a capture card, not theater; what you see is what he saw.


                                    2: When the sniper fires in the last scenario, the delay is roughly 0,6 seconds from his death is caused till he dies on his screen, once again it is evident from the killcam with it's handy count showing 0,6 or 0,7 seconds when the sniper fires the lethal shot.


                                    He's not going to play MW3 for a while.


                                    A clip that represents my average game as host in MW2 and Black


                                    Comment on that video:


                                    i get that when i am hosting

                                    i have 8ms ping

                                    so lets say some one in the room has lik 200 ms ping

                                    the game with forse you to have like 500ms ping to make it fair, i mean really


                                    Random youtuber complaining about pulling host because of the host-disadvantage he experiences:




                                    FINALLY! someone famous on youtube ADMITS LAG COMP DESTROYS people with good connections!



                                    Machinima Partner pro player ranting about how he hates to pull host because his games suck when he's hosting.




                                    The guy posting the video:

                                    People see me before I see them





                                    I do not host anymore because I'm on wireless, and most of my games are average or good compared to Black Ops.


                                    I do not complain for myself, but because I always pulled host in Black Ops and have friends who have never visited any game forums complain about them not being able to kill enemies when hosting in MW3.
                                    I know the symptoms and know how annoying it is.



                                    In the first video, I established an example of what I'm so used to experience:

                                    Some players WITH GOOD CONNECTIONS AND EVEN HOSTS are CONSTANTLY about half a second behind what other players see, and that half second of their actions WILL BE erased from the game reality when the players who are half a second in the future kills them.




                                    Obviously, lag compensation is an integral part of "server hit prediction", and has been around in all CoD games -- but something has been coded differently in the lag compensation or a part of that system starting in high ping games in MW2, continuing over to Black Ops and MW3.

                                    Last Edited: Mar 11, 2012 2:59 PM
                              • Test #1
                                Re: petition for removing lag compensation

                                I'm a software engineer with 27+ years of experience.  I've written network stacks from the NIC driver up.  I've written real time microkernels from scatch.  I have real time systems running radio telescopes to assembly lines.  I've written windowing GUI's from scatch on proptietary embedded systems.  I have patents on my stuff,  so I hardly think I have a chance of embarassing myself with you guys.


                                I never said it wasn't broken.  I actually said that it was.  I just said it could not be removed. Yes, they did something different in MW3.  The devs have said as much, expecially for the host.  And yes, being host is pretty much a death sentence in MW3.  I've gone 30-0 in a FFA with no one able to touch me.  Go to the next game in the same lobby, same people,  and I can't buy a kill.  I don't even have a chance to hip fire before I'm dead in a situation that I should have every advantage.  After 10 deaths in a row I quit and I'm host.  So yes, I think it's broken.


                                But stop saying "remove it remove it remove it".  It can't be removed.  Without some form of lag comp you would have no idea where to aim.  You would have no notion of where the hit box is.  Plus, people would be teleporting like mad.  So they use move prediction and some form of lag unwind. I don't know the exact details because I haven't looked at the code.


                                I personally think they messed up their move prediction in some way.  I've seen some pretty freaky differences between what I saw in game and what happens in the kill cam. Stalker really seems to mess with hit detection. I think that's because the rapid movements and direction changes of people with stalker mess with the move prediction code and causes hit boxes to be very out of sync with the character models on the client. But that's just a guess.  Know one knows for sure, not even the devs who know the code by heart (at least I hope they do).


                                All we can do from outside the black box is say....something is broken.  And ***** about it until they fix it. 


                                Okay, done ranting now.  For some reason I just needed that   

                                Last Edited: Mar 11, 2012 5:39 PM
                                  • Test #1
                                    Re: petition for removing lag compensation

                                    zArtfulDgr wrote:


                                    I'm a software engineer with 27+ years of experience.  I've written network stacks from the NIC driver up.  I've written real time microkernels from scatch.  I have real time systems running radio telescopes to assembly lines.  I've written windowing GUI's from scatch on proptietary embedded systems.  I have patents on my stuff,  so I hardly think I have a chance of embarassing myself with you guys.



                                    Do you have a massive penis too?


                                    Just kidding....;-)

                                    Last Edited: Mar 14, 2012 3:44 AM
                                  • Test #1
                                    Re: petition for removing lag compensation

                                    It will never happen. It has been part of every online multiplayer game since games came onlione. Not only do FPS games have it, racing gams have it, fighting games have it even role playing games have it. Just the settings were messed up in this game and now its hard to get them back to near the right level.


                                    It is not anything new that was added in BO or in MW3 as some people like to try and think or claim.

                                    Last Edited: Mar 11, 2012 9:34 PM
                                    • Test #1
                                      Re: petition for removing lag compensation

                                      I'm not a software engineer, programmer or developer. I'm just a gamer, been playing games since before the internet went mainstream in the early 80's. So I don't know how games are buit or work or how to fix them. All I do know is how they should work. This one is broken. Broken as in does not work as intended, i'm no super player i'm competely average I get beat all the time, but I watch the replays and when I fire off an enitre clip from my P90, or I empty 3 bullets from my desert eagle into the back of a guys head at point blank, or i sneak up and knife a guy, and he turns and kills me, in the replay none of the actions I saw myself do happend, majority of the time i'm standing still for my opponent to do with as he/she pleases. This is my first COD game and it will be my last I see no reason for a game to be out this long and be broken. To be fair there are games where the opposite is true, I once missed and shot dirt, but got a head shot on a guy who on my screen was around the corner, again in the replay he was not, in games like those i can kill everyone on the team like i'm in the matrix, i just dodge bullets. If this was something that happend occasionaly then it could be delt with but it is one or the other no middle ground.I would rather go back to the Desert Combat mod for BF1942 then play some of the games out now adays, more and more devs seem to care less about quality and more about flash and get it out the door. The last 5 games i purchases were not ready to be shipped: MMH6, SH3, SOTS2, BF3, and CODMW3. I'd like to make a suggestion to the Dev's to improve play. From the forums I can see you already know about the "lag compensation" or whatever it is called. This is to adress the hackers. Yes there are hackers, blatent hackers and sly ones. The blatent ones well thats a no brainer but the sly ones, maybe there hacking maye its perks, my suggestion is to add an ignore player function so that once they are ignored they are never matched with you again. So wether they are hacking or just a good player, give em the benefit of the doubt and just ignore em don't ban em. Thats my 2 cents.

                                      Last Edited: Mar 12, 2012 1:06 PM
                                      • Test #1
                                        Re: petition for removing lag compensation

                                        First off let me say you're stupid. Second, lag comp is needed in online gaming in order to make halfway playable. If you removed lag comp people would disappear randomly and the shots you fire will almost never connect.


                                        The reason you're experiencing such bad results of lag comp is because it's being used entirely too much. The match making in this game is causing lag comp to go into overdrive and that's why it's getting such a bad rep. Lag comp was never disigned to be used as much as it is used sometimes

                                        Last Edited: Mar 12, 2012 3:42 PM
                                          • Test #1
                                            Re: petition for removing lag compensation

                                            Basic lag compensation is simply coordinates attached to a timeline, allowing the host to confirm client's actions and player character deaths, positions and origins of explosives and shots fired, AND allowing clients to hit what happened at roughly the same time the player shot at another player.


                                            CoD must use a VERY modified lag compensation that non longer can be called lag compensation, because it isn't only used for hit detection when HOSTS who should have a 0 ping delay on any normal lag compensation system, can have a half second delay.

                                            It is as if some players are given artificial delays on -- not their actions -- but what they see on the screen, putting them and their actions far behind what everyone else sees on their screens.

                                            Perhaps someone forgot that ping needs to be halved if it is going to be used on delaying onscreen actions, or forgot that ping is measured in 1/1000th of a second (millisecond) and not 1/100th of a second; 100 ping = a 0,1 second delay --

                                            A 100 ping player in Counter-Strike has a ~0,05-0.07 second delay on what he sees on his screen, and has a 0.05-0.07 second delay before his actions happen on the server.
                                            The first is a disadvantage, the second is his counter; He can see around corners 0.05 seconds before other people can see him, but when he fires his shots will not be fired on the server before that 0.05 second delay is over, allowing the other players with better ping to respond with advantages.


                                            When other players with lower ping rounds a corner, however, he is at a major disadvantage.

                                            Last Edited: Mar 12, 2012 4:26 PM
                                          • Test #1
                                            Re: petition for removing lag compensation

                                            I sign!


                                            I'm not enjoying playing with this game, a lot of people do not have fun too because there is some trooble with the connection... lag compensation, or what ever you call it, it's present on the game more than any other call of duty, I can feel it, everybody whose not adventaging by the connection can feel/experiment it, if modern warfare 3 is the biggest best seller of all time, they should find a way to fix it. till this, I go back on mw2 and COD4 and what a miracle, I'm pretty good!

                                            I have no intention to buy any other cod licence in the futur if they did not do something to make people have better game experience... i feel like a pain in the ass, thanks activision...

                                            Last Edited: Mar 12, 2012 5:28 PM