33 Replies Latest reply: Mar 30, 2014 12:39 PM by ReUpAdct RSS

    Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!

      This has probably been said loads before in relation to BO2, but no harm in repeating the message for the benefit of Ghosts...

       

      To prevent players padding their stats (specifically KD and WL) and actually play the objective, then the ONLY stats which should count are those related to the specific game mode objectives.  For example:

       

      Domination: Captures and defends

      Kill Confirmed: Kills confirmed or denied

      Demolition: plants or defuses

      Capture the Flag: flags captured or retrieved

      Team Death Match: Kills per game (but not deaths, assuming deaths don't affect own-team score)

       

      My point is, by explicitly linking stats with game objectives, then people may actually start playing the objective to enhance their stats and hence 'standing' in the community...

       

      R

        • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
          rankismet

          MajorMess wrote:

           

          This has probably been said loads before in relation to BO2, but no harm in repeating the message for the benefit of Ghosts...

           

          To prevent players padding their stats (specifically KD and WL) and actually play the objective, then the ONLY stats which should count are those related to the specific game mode objectives.  For example:

           

          Domination: Captures and defends

          Kill Confirmed: Kills confirmed or denied

          Demolition: plants or defuses

          Capture the Flag: flags captured or retrieved

          Team Death Match: Kills per game (but not deaths, assuming deaths don't affect own-team score)

           

          My point is, by explicitly linking stats with game objectives, then people may actually start playing the objective to enhance their stats and hence 'standing' in the community...

           

          R

           

          Nah... kills matter in objective game modes, too. A dead man caps no flags.

           

          Also, consider this... you play domination and a good team may only get 2 caps. They may not even get many defends because they are killing the other team before they get close enough for it to be called a defend.

           

          Individual stats in a team game are meaningless unless one plays with an "I" in "team".

            • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!

              Sorry to disagree but...

               

              a) Regarding the first point A dead man cannot contribute to *any* game mode objective, and so KD (beyond TDM) is not objective specific.  That is, as a statistic, KD tells you nothing about the player's contribution to the team effort.  Given the endemic problem of players ignoring the objective and padding their own KD stat, I do feel that KD should be removed to encourage objective play.

               

              b) Regarding the example of a Domination match, if the other team players are being killed before they can get to cap a flag, then their flag capture stats don't improve (they were trying, but failed to achieve the objective).  Meanwhile, if the other team players are focused on successfully defending their captured flags, then they will boost their 'flag defend' stats nicely.

               

              c) Regarding the 'I' in 'team', I'm afraid I don't follow your argument.  If an individual captures/defends a flag, plants/defuses a bomb etc, then their own personal stats in these domains will reflect their efforts (regardless of whether the team wins or loses).  I.e. their own personal capture/defend/plant/defuse etc stats increase.  Therefore, the 'I' in 'team' does reflect their own personal commitment to game objective play.

                • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                  rankismet

                  MajorMess wrote:

                   

                  Sorry to disagree but...

                   

                  a) Regarding the first point A dead man cannot contribute to *any* game mode objective, and so KD (beyond TDM) is not objective specific.  That is, as a statistic, KD tells you nothing about the player's contribution to the team effort.  Given the endemic problem of players ignoring the objective and padding their own KD stat, I do feel that KD should be removed to encourage objective play.

                   

                  b) Regarding the example of a Domination match, if the other team players are being killed before they can get to cap a flag, then their flag capture stats don't improve (they were trying, but failed to achieve the objective).  Meanwhile, if the other team players are focused on successfully defending their captured flags, then they will boost their 'flag defend' stats nicely.

                   

                  c) Regarding the 'I' in 'team', I'm afraid I don't follow your argument.  If an individual captures/defends a flag, plants/defuses a bomb etc, then their own personal stats in these domains will reflect their efforts (regardless of whether the team wins or loses).  I.e. their own personal capture/defend/plant/defuse etc stats increase.  Therefore, the 'I' in 'team' does reflect their own personal commitment to game objective play.

                   

                  Disagree away... every opinion is fine... even when wrong.

                   

                  a) KDR alone does not indicate a player's contribution. Neither do caps/defends. Neither does SPM. They are components of quantifying a player's contribution. What's equally endemic is the misguided belief someone is ignoring the objective when they are not behaving in a way someone else considers proper. KD matters in all game modes because if the other team is dead... the killed part of KDR... they aren't securing any objectives. ICYMI, COD is a shooter.

                   

                  b) You are aware opponents must be within a certain radius of the domination point for a kill to be counted as a defend, right? The point is, a good "team" will kill the enemy before they even get within that radius. People will have low defends but the enemy will have secured nothing. This will cause people with your misguided POV to presume they aren't PTFO. The reality is... they are. Just not in way you consider proper.

                   

                  c) It's apparent you often are the "I" in "team" or you would understand what is meant by it. The guy who keeps rushing to 3 cap when the "team" has positions covered and two points captured thinks he's PTFO and it's his team that's the issue. Way to be the "I".

                   

              • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                MrAdaptability

                Why in the hell would they ever take out wins/losses? The entire point of playing a match is trying to win . Hell K/D does matter a lot in pretty much any game mode, sure some players will pad their stats but that doesn't take away the validity of the stat itself. I can't think of any game mode where someone's K/D wouldn't directly effect the outcome of a match. SnD, CTF, KC, HQ, Dom all are effected pretty directly by how well your team does in the kills/deaths department. If you're team isn't killing the enemy and is dying constantly how do you expect to win any game mode? If you're teammates are dying left and right and getting limited kills that leads to larger timespaces for the enemy to do their thing with the objective. Assuming of course your team was on the wining side, which probably wouldn't be the case if they had a lack of kills and an abundance of deaths.

                 

                If someone on your team isn't getting the kills to keep enemies off of the objective than your going to lose, plain and simple. In a perfect world everyone would play the objective first and worry about their killstreaks or K/D second, but this isn't a perfect world. Player behavior doesn't detract from the validity of the stats in question.

                  • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                    adw1983

                    Search and Destroy

                    Domination

                    Capture the flag

                    Demolition

                    Free for All

                    Hardpoint

                     

                    You can win all of those while having a KD of 0.5 in those games -- because of YOUR effort in taking the objectives

                    You can lose all the same game modes with a KD of 5.0 -- because of YOUR lack of  effort in taking the objectives


                    THEN, in team deathmatch, going 20-12 is far better than going 10-3.

                    1.67 KD can be better than 3.34 KD in team deathmatch -- simply because 20-12 yields 8 positive points, while 10-3 only yields 7 positive points.


                    Not to mention that going 10-10 may be better than going 10-3, if you get an UAV or UAV-jammer or VSAT that prevents your teammates from dying 4 times, killing the enemy instead:

                    Score 70-68 is better than 66-65 (-4 kills -3 deaths: -4 kills from teammates -7 deaths for you +4 deaths from teammates)

                      • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                        MrAdaptability

                        As a single player you'd be correct. I'm speaking of an entire team that has a negative K/D. There pretty much no way if your entire team is negative that you would win a match simply because that means your team was being stifled from even getting to the objective or doing what needed to be done, simple as that really. My point is that getting kills is completely necessary for a team to win, if your whole team is doing poorly in the killing department then chances are high you're team is getting crushed in the objective department as well.

                          • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                            adw1983

                            Sorry, but wrong again.

                             

                            Search and Destroy

                            Domination

                            Capture the flag

                            Demolition

                            Free for All

                            Kill Confirmed

                            Hardpoint

                             

                            can all easily be won with a 0.5 KD across your team -- for as long as your team completes the objectives, probably employing smoke grenades, group rushing and flak jackets.

                             

                            In fact,

                            Domination

                            Capture the flag

                            Hardpoint

                             

                            can all be won without a single kill across your team.

                      • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                        RunAndGun1

                        Stats like KD and W/L are all ego based. For one, no one individual is solely responsible for their team's win. It's a team effort that wins the match for the team. Secondly, I play mostly randoms. So I have no say whatsoever of who I'm teamed up with. My being matched with a winning team most of the time is pure luck. I'm fortunate when I get a team of good players who are mature enough to play the objective on an objective based match. But, by the same token, I can't take credit for the win since wins are team affected.

                         

                        Bottom line, I play for fun. Yea, it feels better when my teawinds. But I'm happy when I have fun playing, too. I find COD is more fun when I play to support my team.

                        • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                          LifeSong1

                          I disagree to an extent.  Some stats aren't as relevant to some game modes, but others are always relevant such as W/L. Sure, 1 individual does not usually determine the outcome of the game, but having a positive W/L ratio will more often than not tell you how helpful that person is to a team. Over time, this number should reflect more accurately how helpful that person is for playing with teams, partial teams, or just randoms.

                           

                          I do believe K/D is a good stat to have no matter what the game mode is. If you are playing domination and are 2 and 20, that means you contributed to a lot of scorestreaks which in turn hurt your team.  That is not helpful at all. It needs to be one stat amongst many that help you determine how good or how helpful a player will be.  For example, having a 2/1 K/D ratio in a game is a positive K/D ratio but it may not have helped the team very much. 

                           

                          Regarding TDM and only showing Kills and not deaths.  What's the point? I've seen way too many people who lead their team in kills but also lead the entire lobby in deaths (ie - 23/30).  All you did there was not really help your team and rely on some of your teammates that camp (which you probably hate) to have a better K/D than you so that they can counteract your negative K/D.  K/D is an important stat in TDM and in my opinion is important to have alongside of SPM.  When you combine the 2 stats it tells me a lot about the player. I know that if they have a high SPM they likely do more running and if that is combined with a high K/D that means they are probably really good at it. One stat by itself is not good enough and only half of a stat is even worse.  Deaths do matter as every death contributes to the enemies scorestreak which in turn can change the game.

                            • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                              RunAndGun1

                              I disagree to an extent, as well. The problem with W/L is that it is mostly relevant when you're playing with your clan or a group of friends you know. When it's random match ups, you're "stuck" with whatever players you get on your team. Sorry, but in recent COD titles more people are playing selfishly then in any other time I've played. Unless team players play as a team - with the team win in mind and not just their stats - your team may well end up in the crapper at the end of the match.

                               

                              Thankfully, Ghosts may be the cure since it appears - unless IW succumbs to scrub influence - that team work is being rewarded in Ghosts gameplay. Personally, I have more fun when playing as a team. But, that's just me.

                            • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                              Seph009

                              I have a 2.3 KD, 1.5 WL and a 400 spm while playing GW with 1-3 friends. My friends used to ***** about me not playing the objective so I just ran around trying to grab flags/get quick kills and theystarted complaining, why you ask? I was the guy that anchored and cut people off, it may have taken me 1/3rd or 1/2th of a match to get my high killstreaks but no one is going to be grabbing **** when I have a lodestar and dogs up. People don't seem to understand that KD and how someone plays does matter outside of tdm. You're going to want a slayer on your team since if you don't have one flags will constantly be capped while killstreaks are being rained down upon you. Every team needs slayers, rushers, and people on defense.

                               

                              KD and WL are a part of every FPS, if you don't like how players play because of this change over to a less competitive type of game overall.

                               

                              To nail my point home, if I drop 80 kills but only have 2 flag caps and no defends since I was constantly killing them in their spawn would that mean I wasn't playing the objective? No it just means I didn't need to since I was already helping more than enough.

                              • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                                r8edtripx

                                MajorMess wrote:

                                 

                                This has probably been said loads before in relation to BO2, but no harm in repeating the message for the benefit of Ghosts...

                                 

                                To prevent players padding their stats (specifically KD and WL) and actually play the objective, then the ONLY stats which should count are those related to the specific game mode objectives.  For example:

                                 

                                Domination: Captures and defends

                                Kill Confirmed: Kills confirmed or denied

                                Demolition: plants or defuses

                                Capture the Flag: flags captured or retrieved

                                Team Death Match: Kills per game (but not deaths, assuming deaths don't affect own-team score)

                                 

                                My point is, by explicitly linking stats with game objectives, then people may actually start playing the objective to enhance their stats and hence 'standing' in the community...

                                 

                                R

                                I definitely play the objective when playing those gametypes, but I really enjoy looking at K/D. I know they won't take it out, but if they ever did, I'd be bummed.

                                • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!

                                  I Agree that they should remove your overall k/d but keep the in game stats such as kills/deaths/captures/plants. the reason being b02 got really unenjoyable due to all the tryhards worrying about their k/d and leaving, to prevent this remove the k/d and everyone will try to win the game instead of spamming streaks. People wouldn't care if they went 1-10 as long as they won the game, this is the reason cod4 was very popular, everyone played for fun

                                  • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                                    Th3_St4lk3r

                                    I agree with removing K/D and W/L stats because they don't accurately show a player's skill. In fact there isn't really a way to do that. K/D just forces people into killwhoring, quitting, evading good opponents, etc. An overall SPM value is pointless as well, because it's dependant on the gamemodes that you play.

                                     

                                    As for individual stats per gamemode, I don't really think there is a good way to show a player's "skill" in that gamemode either. Yes, on paper showing K/D for TDM, FFA and Objective contribution for the rest sounds like a good idea, but it doesn't properly work. A few examples:

                                    a) You play in a team that is clearly dominating the other team. You are already very far ahead in score (doesn't really matter which gamemode). You don't have to play the objective anymore, your victory is already secured. Why should you play full-attack on the objective if you can just play however you like until the game is over. Again some stats would force players into a certain playstyle.

                                    It's pretty much the same if you are in a completely loosing team.

                                    b) Objective score isn't balanced. A player getting kills just outside the hardpoint is as important as someone camping in there, but he will get less objective score. Or a Sniper/LMG defending a domination spot from long range can be pretty important, but he will get less score. Or in Kill Confirmed: Player A gets long range kills, and player B picks up the tags. That doesn't mean A isn't going for the objective.

                                    c) In some gamemodes only a few players per team can score (caps in CTF or Dom, plants in SnD, Demolition). So if you play with good teammates you will naturally end up with less score than when you play with noobs.

                                     

                                    Personally I'd like to see no public stats at all. There isn't really any stat that properly reflects a player's skill or contribution to his team. The only thing that would remotely work is propably Score Per Minute(or per Game) for each Gamemode, but even that can be easily distorted by joining open games, leaving early, having enemies leave, etc.

                                      • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                                        LifeSong1

                                        Th3_St4lk3r wrote:

                                        As for individual stats per gamemode, I don't really think there is a good way to show a player's "skill" in that gamemode either. Yes, on paper showing K/D for TDM, FFA and Objective contribution for the rest sounds like a good idea, but it doesn't properly work. A few examples:

                                        a) You play in a team that is clearly dominating the other team. You are already very far ahead in score (doesn't really matter which gamemode). You don't have to play the objective anymore, your victory is already secured. Why should you play full-attack on the objective if you can just play however you like until the game is over. Again some stats would force players into a certain playstyle.

                                        It's pretty much the same if you are in a completely loosing team.

                                         

                                        For TDM I think K/D is a very accurate representation of part of the person's skill.  As I said in a previous post, it is not the only stat that matters.   But The goal of TDM is to win by having the most kills.  All deaths do is give the other team a point. Thus K/D is very important in order for your team to win.  The "objective" is to get lots of kills and at least one fewer death.  I do play full-attack on the objective. You can play however you like (run and gun, snipe, camp, etc) as long as your K/D is positive by one kill.

                                         

                                        I'm sorry but I don't see how K/D is not a stat that shows your skill for TDM.  Again, not saying it is the only stat. I'm also not saying it needs to be above 3.  If I'm playing in a game with someone who has a 0.5 K/D ratio I'm really going to hope they are on the other team. If someone has above a 1.0 K/D I'm more willing to have them on my team as they are more likely to at least break even if not help out. A person with a 3.0 K/D is not necessarily any better than someone with a 1.01 K/D but what it does mean is they are helping keep the team out of the negative and that is a good thing.

                                         

                                        I do understand that K/D is not relevant in a lot of the other game modes, but in TDM it is one of the most accurate stats to tell me a players skill in helping me win.

                                          • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                                            adw1983

                                            What is best in Team Deathmatch: 30-17 or 15-4?

                                            • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                                              Th3_St4lk3r

                                              Kill/death difference, not ratio is the important stat in TDM.

                                               

                                              Other than that my points still apply. It does not exactly show a player's skill because you can get a good K/D a lot easier when playing with a good party (maybe not too good, so you get enough kills) than when playing solo.

                                              Also in BO2 a player who runs UAV/CounterUAV/VSAT will help his teammates get a better K/D while he gets less Kills for himself than when he is using Lodestar, VTOL or Swarm. This will also affect his K/D but wouldn't really say something about his skill.

                                              And also there was my point of games where you are far ahead. If a good player could easily get a 3.0 K/D when he "tries", but decides to play knife only, or trickshot (or whatever he thinks is fun to do) instead because his team is a lot of points ahead this doesn't mean he is a worse player.

                                          • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!

                                            though you have some valid points you have many mistakes as well. Not everyone that is just killing is avoiding or ignoring the objective. Not everyone can be going for the objective all the time. You need those that go for it and those that hold back or defend or camp their own points/flags/sites to prevent the other team from winning.

                                             

                                            No one singular stat ever tells how good a player is. No singular stat will ever force or make players play the objective more to your liking either. There will always be the slayers, the camper/defenders and the rushers in objective game modes. That will never change. Removing stats or changing how they are shown will not alter that either.

                                            • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!

                                              I think you run into the wrong people. Your entire argument is based on the people with 2+ k/d are only getting 10kills a game. However with any true high K/d Player they are often in the 20s and even 30s in a team death match game. Most good players that play all game types and have high K/ds should have an avg kill per game aroun12-17 ( with game modes like S&D and S&R keeping that stat down.)

                                              Also Win/Loss ration is the true statement to how helpful you are in any game mode. The objective is to win and if you are a player with a high K/D and a Win loss of 80%+ then it would go to say you are doing your part to win games. Why remove the win loss stat when the game is based on winning and losing.

                                              Also last time I Checked Gunships, Apaches and gryphons do a real good job of keeping people off objectives

                                               

                                              2.6 K/D

                                              83% Win

                                                • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                                                  adw1983

                                                  Individual players cannot consistently win objective based game modes if they are not grouped up.

                                                   

                                                  Grouping up --> higher WL, by merit of team stacking:

                                                  4-6 non-random people are bound to play better together than 6 random people.

                                                   

                                                  A player with 6 captures and 12 defends in Domination will lose without a party, if playing against a party.

                                                  That is why individual performance is the most important statistic, in my opinion.

                                                   

                                                  Team deathmatch: Score contribution:

                                                  15 kills 10 deaths: 5 score contribution

                                                  10 kills 15 deaths: -5 score contribution

                                                  20 kills 10 deaths: 10 score contribution

                                                   

                                                  Domination: Captures, defends

                                                  Nothing else matters, because that is all a player can control.

                                                  But domination is tricky: Killing someone way before they reach the actual flag is better than risking letting them in, but does not contribute unless you're SITTING on top of the flag -- and the flag is ALWAYS in a shitty position, MADE for it's capturerers and defenders to be sitting ducks.

                                                • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                                                  ReUpAdct

                                                  They both matter and in combination, tells you how "good" a player is.  A player with a strong K/D and W/L ratio is likely a very good player +/- very good teammates, regardless of gametype. A player with low K/D and W/L is not a good player, nor are they playing on a good team. That's a no-brainer.

                                                   

                                                  It is the other 2 groups that people disagree with.  A player with a high K/D and low W/L (less than 1.0, for example), does not play the objective and is not a team player (like someone who camps tags on kill confirmed but does not collect them).  Someone that has a average to below average K/D but good W/L is either a selfless team player (jumps on B flag all the time) and/or part of a very good team.

                                                   

                                                  I think they reasons people disagree on the 2 groups are for various reasons.  One is there are many opinions about what is "good" or "bad" K/D and W/L ratios.  Even if everyone were to agree on this, there are, I think, different "good or bad" ratios for each gametype.

                                                   

                                                  My personal opinion on this.  Given suicides/quitting/leaving lobbies etc.  The average K/D is about 0.9 to 1.0.  If you were to assume that teams, on the whole are evenly matched over time, the average W/L is also likely to be 0.9 to 1.  I think that a good K/D will depend on what the player mostly plays.  A good TDM player should have a higher K/D (like 1.5 or more)  than a domination player who also caps B flag alot.

                                                  I consider myself a good player, play HC KC 98% of the time, solo 75% of the time and have a K/D of 1.2 and W/L of 1.8.  I am 80% of the time in the top 3 on my team for score/kills/tags and similarly have more tags than deaths (which I think is a critical measure of a good KC player).  My buddy who is a much better player has a 1.6 K/D and 2.5 W/L and is 85% the top player of the whole lobby for points/kills/tags.  when we play with my other buddy who has a 1.5 K/D and 95% of the time only plays with the two of us, his W/L is 4.5.   I have another buddy who only plays DOM and has a 0.9 K/D and 1.2 W/L and he is a B flag junkie but is a critical cog in us winning every single match.  then I know someone else with with 3.2 K/D and 3.1 W/L who just pads his stats and plays on our team when we're stacked but does not play the objective unless it is TDM and gets annihilated and rage quits if playing for the other team against us.

                                                   

                                                  My two cents but in the end, I recommend just having fun and playing with friends who play the objective and will stick all matches out to the end is the way to play, get better and have a ton of fun with this game.

                                                  • Re: Ghosts should not show K/D or win/loss stats!
                                                    BobbyMcGee

                                                    you must have a low k/d....