41 Replies Latest reply: Nov 26, 2013 2:13 PM by nicedrewishfela RSS

    SMG/AR Balance way off...

      After playing Blops2 for a year with it's super-fast-paced, action-packed playstyle (especially competitive games), I have been used to playing in an aggressive, run and gun style. Now whilst this worked on Black Ops 2, it most certainly does not work on Ghosts. No matter which SMG I choose, if I play my normal attacking, objective based style, I will end up struggling to get a 1kd (2.5kd, 450spm on Black Ops 2).

       

      So, I thought it was my playstyle that was messing me up. I try again with the SMGs but start to play more cautiously and as a slayer rather than going for the objective. Like this I end up with around a 1.5kd.

       

      Then, I try the Remington and my mouth drops to the floor and my eyes bulge from their sockets. I go 34-6 in my first game, playing a similar slayer style to above. WTF is this bull***? The Remington feels like it is at least equal or better than all of the SMGs at any range... The only advantage to having an SMG is the quicker ADS but that is useless because of stalker and how effective firing from the hip is, even with no steady aim.

       

      To me it feels as if SMGs are useless in this game, they aren't particularly effective up close against ARs and average at medium range. Comparing at the gun stats from Blops2 and Ghosts, on average the Assault Rifles give ~5 extra damage at close range.

       

      In my opinion, either the ARs need to be nerfed or the SMGs need to be strengthened to balance the game.

       

      Opinions?

        • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...
          xWheelie

          My opinion is you are having a hard time adapting. I did the same thing in Black Ops 2 and I'm doing great with SMG's in this game.

            • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...

              I thought that but I decided to look at how I was dying and it was mainly due to engaging in medium range gunfights with AR players or running into more than 1 enemy.

               

              I'd say in most of the medium range gunfights, I would have got the kill and come out alive on Black Ops 2 with my MSMC. It's not even my accuracy (I'd actually say the auto aim is greater on this game anyway). The problem is the SMGs just aren't good enough when you move anything more than 5m from someone..

               

              How are you doing well? Are you sticking strictly to CQC? In buildings, sitting doors etc?

            • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...
              NoLifeKing32

              Who even says the ARs and SMGs have to have anything in common? They are completely different weapons and absolutely do not have to play the same. SMGs are close range weapons, they should not excel at range. This is clearly not a SMG game.

                • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...

                  By nature ARs and SMGs are quite similar, just designed for different ranges. But at what range does an SMG become an AR? Who knows. This is why in games you will often see some guns as an AR one game but an SMG in another (the Mtar is the most recent example, changing from Blops2 to Ghosts).

                   

                  I don't want SMGs to be like snipers, I just want them to have a little more range like they have had in previous games so I don't get outgunned all the time when I get the first shot off.

                • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...
                  Hobeinator

                  I don't think the balance is off.

                   

                  SMGs have an advantage over ARs as long as they're within max damage range.  If you're using an SMG you need to try to play in a manner that keeps the majority of your engagements at close range, otherwise you'll get destroyed.  And it works both ways... If you're using an AR you want to try to keep your engagements at slightly longer ranges or the shotguns and SMGs will destroy you.

                  • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...
                    myevo8you

                    OK, here is the deal. The guns ARE balanced. Here is how they SHOULD break down

                     

                    1. Light Machine Guns - big magazine, slow movement, slow reload high damage per round, slower rate of fire

                     

                    2. Shotgun - VERY powerful up close but SHARP damage drop off at anything outside of 20 yards

                     

                    3. Pistols - fast aiming, small magazine, faster movement, short accuracy, high damage drop off after 50 yards

                     

                    4. Snipers - Slow aiming, should be near useless in close quarters combat, high magnification, highest per round, slowest rate of fire, slow movement speed

                     

                    5. SMG's - medium to short range guns, over 75 yards damage drop off increases, fast movement, quick aim

                     

                    6. Assault Rifles - Jack of all trades gun, good magazine size, good power, medium reload speed, can be used up close or long ranges.

                     

                    Whoever thought that a SMG SHOULD be able to go toe to toe with an assault rifle at 150 yards is a MORON.

                     

                    As for you comparing guns from COD title to COD title, you have ZERO clue as to what you are talking about. Gun manufacturers make TONS of different types of guns all using the same style, but VERY different capabilities. Let's take the PTR-91 being as I own one of these. They come in a .223 barrel, a 5.56 barrel, a .308 barrel (which I have), and can even order a .338 Lapua barrel. You take the SAME GUN and go from a .223 barrel, to a .338 Lapua you go from having a quick movement Assault style rifle to a Sniper that is pretty much the PSG-1. Same name on the gun, but 2 TOTALLY different ways of using it.

                     

                    Take the M27 from Black Ops 2. It was an assault rifle, the M27-IAr in this game is a LMG.

                      • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...

                        As an example for the range I mean, take a look at Sovereign and the square areas of space either side of the main building and on the opposite side over the conveyor belt: http://www1.codghosts.net/images/multiplayer-maps/sovereign-multiplayer-map-layo ut.jpg

                         

                        In my eyes those zones should be SMG dominant, the range people come to see eachother is close to medium. But playing the game, it's completely not. ARs dominate the outer sections of this map and sure, I could understand them having the upper hand if they were on the upper level, but they aren't.

                         

                        My point was that the line between SMGs and ARs is fuzzy. Guns can have only small modifications to them and they change from one to the other. What is the difference between a long ranged SMG and a short ranged AR? They should have fairly equal capabilities at medium range encounters such as those in Sovereign, but they don't.

                        • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...

                          i agree with you. this is the first call of duty where every gun has a purpose and there is a sense of balance. i dont want every gun the same. its boring. i love this call of duty.

                          • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...
                            SitRepPro

                            myevo8you wrote:

                             

                            OK, here is the deal. The guns ARE balanced. Here is how they SHOULD break down

                             

                            1. Light Machine Guns - big magazine, slow movement, slow reload high damage per round, slower rate of fire

                             

                            That would be wrong.  The MTAR-X deals higher damage at range than the LSAT.

                          • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...

                            Also guys, I just had another couple of games with the Remington and at times I really was shaking my head thinking how cheap some of the kills were. Seriously, until a patch comes out that balances the guns, I promise you guys that this is the gun you should use. There were times when at close range I was killing the SMGs even when they sometimes got the first shot!

                             

                            That for me is first hand experience to me that this thing needs nerfing or the SMGs need strengthening. Another clear clue is the difference in how easy the game is (for me, anyway - anybody the same?). With the SMG, the game is a real challenge for me, as stated before I will generally get around 1-1.5kd. But with this Remington I can average a 5 or 6 no problem. I'm actually a better SMG player than AR player too on Black Ops 2.

                             

                            And I can say the same thing with the MSBS and to an extent, the marksman rifles.

                            One of these weapon groups' damage needs to be changed because the difference in how easy the game is when using these different weapons is frankly ridiculous.

                              • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...
                                Hobeinator

                                If you're in close range using a Remington and a player with an SMG fires at you first and you end up with the kill, one of the following things is happening...

                                 

                                1) You're hitting an area with a higher damage mulitplier than he is

                                2) He just sucks

                                3) Some kind of lag issue is coming into play in your favor

                                 

                                The Remington has the lowest firerate of all the full auto ARs and in close quarters is at a disadvantage to not only SMGs, but other ARs as well.  Its strength is its range.

                                 

                                As for the Marksman Rifles, they can kill in less bullets than the ARs and SMGs but the firerates are capped so low that unless you are extremely accurate you are at a considerable disadvantage (at close range).  If you miss just one bullet you're probably dead.  And the same goes for the MSBS - miss that first burst and you're dead.  Unless the other guy is really slow and/or has bad aim.

                                  • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...

                                    Give the Remington a try man. It is pretty good close range providing you pre aim the corners. It's more than usable on the smallest maps such as Strikezone, Tremor. And at the medium range it flattens SMGs, then of course it's performance at range is unreal. I think this is the most overpowered gun on the game.

                                     

                                    Yeah the problem is less so with the MSBS and the Marksman rifles. But I think it still happens more often that it should do on a balanced game.

                                      • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...
                                        Hobeinator

                                        I have used it and you're right, it can be very effective at close range.  ARs are meant to be versatile.  But I don't think it's overpowered because at close range there are tons of guns that outclass it.  If you're using a Remington and winning close quarter battles against other ARs and SMGs then good on you... you're earning those kills.

                                  • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...
                                    Bielsalmighty

                                    I have the perfect setup to enrage SMG rushers. ARX to put them down at range, and a Masterkey to blow their face off should they make it into their optimal range LOL. Nothing funnier than hearing someone chasing you, ducking round a corner, whipping round and BL-BL-BLAM as they come steaming round

                                     

                                    But yes, IMO SMGs seem a little TOO toothless atm...

                                    • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...

                                      I'm just to lazy to rad all other comments but I have no problem what so ever running and gunning with an smg in this game.

                                      Just like in BO2 people have a heard time seeing me coming and completely destroying them most of the time.

                                       

                                      It took some time to make my class but as of last monday I have been recking with smg's!!!

                                      • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...

                                        Recoil is easy manageable on the MTAR + I hate the iron site (just love the gun)

                                        • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...
                                          ghosthound

                                          Adapt and join the darkside [i.e. the AR whores]

                                          • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...

                                            Well as correct as your answer you got could be, the Assault riffles are unbalanced compared to the SMG's.

                                             

                                            The SMG's effectiveness is almost moot in every aspect of the game. The only thing they have over Assaults are clip capacity or a few over bearing fire rate's. Other then that I still would not play them because the MSBS, Honey, Rem, AXC are all capable of winning trades in every area. 

                                             

                                            I'll throw the honey badger out there as an example. This gun out preforms every gun in the game but a 1 shot burst weapon and even then it could still probably win 50% of the time (It has better run and gun game). It is what the Mtar was made to be, a SMG that is an Assault riffle. Only it has better ACC, handling, about the same fire rate, great damage, about the best pull up speed in the game (or so it feels), built in silencer it suffers no draw backs from, and great distance game. I can not begin to to describe the amount of boosting your KD will get when you start using this gun. There is no draw back, none, just like almost every Assault.

                                             

                                            Like me for example almost 1k kills into the MR-28 and IA-2 and have a 1.25, with the Honey Badger I shoot a 2.0 and a lot of games walk away as 3's.

                                            • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...
                                              MaRk0wNsYoU

                                              They're perfectly balanced.  It's just that in Black Ops 2 the SMG was too OP.  Too many kids hip firing from across the board aka Spraying and Praying.  You use a different gun depending on how big the map is.  If you use an SMG on a huge map it's not going to work out too well for you when everyone else is using a sniper rifle or an assault rifle that has much better range.  I use a vector on Strikezone and it works out very well for me.  You have 2 different type of Run and Gun players.  One is the ones that were used to Black Ops 2 hipfiring across the board running around without a strategy and the other are Run and Gun players that actually have skill.  Ghosts weeds out these 2 different players.  I see the same complaining from a lot of wanna be run and gunners.  The fact is you never had any skill and it shows in this game.

                                                • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...

                                                  Wow, just seen this response. Whenever I use the SMG I will 95% of the time aim in, it just doesn't work against these AR players. Also in Ghosts if you put steady aim on, it's more effective than zooming in. Ghosts doesn't weed out these 2 different players that you categorize, it totally removes the run and gun aspect from the game, also shown by there only being 2 objective based respawn gamemodes.

                                                   

                                                  As for the personal attack that I never had any skill, im laughing because it is obvious from your comment that you have very little game intelligence and so are unlikely to be good at the game yourself.

                                                • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...
                                                  ghosthound

                                                  The AR's aren't overpowered, they were simply under powered in previous titles.

                                                  • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...
                                                    iHattoriHanzo0

                                                    I'm sooo tired of smg's because I've over used them for such a long time.

                                                     

                                                    With all the great assault, marksman, and sniper rifles, I might not ever pick up a smg or shotty this time around. At least not for a while.

                                                    • Re: SMG/AR Balance way off...
                                                      nicedrewishfela

                                                      Can't disagree here.

                                                       

                                                      Have not had much time in game and not used a lot of the SMGs, but the ones I tried were woefully weak and inaccurate. I tend to be better with ARs anyways, but the difference was noticeable.