16 Replies Latest reply: Dec 11, 2013 7:05 AM by St_-_ANG3R RSS

    An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars

    maccabi

      Clan wars is fun, as a clan we really enjoyed competing and winning but herein lies the first of many issues with clan wars as the format stands currently. There are inherent flaws in the format which as is the way (unfortunately) of the CoD community by the second war clans have worked out how to manipulate the war.

       

      Scoring Issues - This needs a complete rethink and overhaul .Period. We "won" the latest clan war on the first night as we knew what nodes to take for the most cp. As a result we ended the first night with a healthy lead that we knew couldn't be whittled down as there wasn't points in the remaining nodes for a clan to catch up.

      The main issues are :-

      Diminishing reward of cp for a node

      When you take a node that has 2 wins left on it with a team of 6 people the node goes to 0

      Cp awarded for holding a node for 24 hours is so minuscule it makes no difference

      The scoring is so archaic it is nigh on impossible to plan a strategy unless you watch the scoreboard 24/7

      Effort does not equal reward.

      No reward for taking a node into play

      Suggestions - Remove the diminishing returns for taking a node , why you did this in the first place makes me scratch my head in confusion. Example we take a node for 10 points, the next clan takes it for 9 we take it back and slowly our lead increases. Once you add other clans into the equation the advantage to the clan who first caps the node gets greater. Diminishing returns should be scraped and replaced with a set amount that ALL clans are able to get. It would increase the competition and make it fair.

      Having a higher win total for a node should be reflected in the reward.. clans this time spent in some cases days taking dom and tdm only to find they got 10 cp and lost their wars as a result.

      If a clan holds a node for 24 hours they should get a 50% of the nodes worth .

      Taking out a node so it goes back into play so that clan is rewarded a set amount of cp opens up competitive play more and allows us to plan strategies around "raiding nodes".

       

      Clan numbers  - We have all seen or experienced clans adding players AFTER the war starts it unbalances the war, obviously you cant stop clans recruiting normally as not all clans would want to enter the war to start with. I suggest adding a penalty if a clan enters a war and then recruits more than say 2-3 players they suffer a 25 cp deduction cost for everyone they bring in.

      This bring me onto the under belly of the clan wars.. manipulating the system. Firstly why the heck dont we have a report clan feature in the app??? Secondly to stop clans loading lobbies and as a by product address the equality of clan sizes limit the amount you get for a win to 3. on current gens and 5 on next gens. I am sure your aware there is also a win clan wars easy mode option this NEEDS to be addressed asap.

       

      I also think there's needs to be an opt in option for clan wars, as i've noticed in a lot of wars there are dead clans who just don't compete, adding a clan xp bonus for taking a node would increase the participation imo as clans want to level up too.

       

      time zones - match clans in regions like usa or europe is fairer than matching euro with us clans, example our main rival in the last two wars were usa clans, as a result we were able to knock out their nodes daytime for us while they were either asleep or at work  the current time to finish favours euro clans

       

      Given the new stuff that's coming in the new year for more competitive clans addressing the manipulation , inequality and unfairness of the scoring needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.

       

      again as i've said previously i really am enjoying clan wars as is my clan, please dont make this into a dom clan op

        • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
          theenemyhatesme

          You addressed just about every problem I could think of. I do believe Clan Wars should be LOCKED when the Clan Wars is started. Or, even add a reduction like you said if they add people to try and be slick about it... We lost to a clan that went from 33 members to 100. Absolutely atrocious.

            • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
              Rankedstatistic

              I'm pissed we spent half a day winning DOM to only get 30cp. Were an 8 person clan and have 3-4 guys on at a time. So we grinded out that DOm to only be rewards with second place. Cause the clan in first took 4-5 nodes the clear day and never looked back. We were down 103-67 and figures we would get ateast 50cp for winning. Ended up Lodi g instead and we held 4 nodes in the end. Last war we whale 5 and still lost!!!!

              • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
                perkachu

                30 CO is a lot compared to what other game modes reward.  I  think TDM and Dom are finfine.  I Think you fail to appreciate that 30 CP is a lot and that those nodes are the hardest for other teams to retake making them easily defendable.   I know my clan just said screw it when it came to trying to over take Dom which required 80 wins. We came in first.  Our clan size is 20.  Hit 281 points...so you see...30 CP your complaining about is over 10 percent of our points.   That's a lot for one node.

                  • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
                    maccabi

                    perkachu wrote:

                     

                    30 CO is a lot compared to what other game modes reward.  I  think TDM and Dom are finfine.  I Think you fail to appreciate that 30 CP is a lot and that those nodes are the hardest for other teams to retake making them easily defendable.   I know my clan just said screw it when it came to trying to over take Dom which required 80 wins. We came in first.  Our clan size is 20.  Hit 281 points...so you see...30 CP your complaining about is over 10 percent of our points.   That's a lot for one node.

                    We didn't bother going for dom or tdm this time round.

                    in the time it took one clan to take tdm we took 5 other nodes and our lead by the end of the first day was around 80 points

                     

                    We were running maybe 2-4 people max over the course of the war , by the 4th day another clan controlled all but 2 nodes yet we won by a clear 190 points as by taking the other nodes the clan in second place had no way of catching us, That is out of whack.

                    in fact the only challenge we faced was the last day both us and the 2nd place clan went for 5 nodes which we both lost out on as we ran out of time

                     

                    What you have to remember here is the win amounts for each war differ depending on the size of the clan too.

                    • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
                      Bielsalmighty

                      Well in our war Dom was 120 wins and paid out 20CP I believe. What did racking up 120 wins in other gametypes net us?

                       

                       

                      HCKC was 15 wins (15CP)

                      HCTDM was 15 wins (10CP)

                      Hunted was 15 wins (15CP)

                      Core KC was 15 wins (12CP)

                      SnD was 30 wins (20CP)

                      Cranked was 15 wins (12CP)

                      Blitz was 15 Wins (12CP)

                       

                      And there you have it. 96CP gained in less time than it would take to gain 20CP from Dom as many of those gametypes are quicker to play than a game of Dom. There is no way on gods green earth that you can say thats 'fine'.

                        • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
                          perkachu

                          But that capture was one that was more difficult for other clans to take.  I think that what people fail to see.  In our division those spots changed hands, twice at most.  No clan wanted to deplete the others wins and then gain the wins needed to capture the node.  That's the big benefit of those.  Look at the number as a defense value.  20 or 30, clans can achieve in a a play session.  80 IS MUCH more difficult.

                            • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
                              maccabi

                              perkachu wrote:

                               

                              But that capture was one that was more difficult for other clans to take.  I think that what people fail to see.  In our division those spots changed hands, twice at most.  No clan wanted to deplete the others wins and then gain the wins needed to capture the node.  That's the big benefit of those.  Look at the number as a defense value.  20 or 30, clans can achieve in a a play session.  80 IS MUCH more difficult.

                              but there is no value in holding or getting them currently.

                               

                              by the time you take a big node you couldve gotten three or four and earnt more points

                              holding the node the cp reward is so low again you'd be better off letting it go and retaking another node while another clan wastes time on the big nodes

                              • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
                                Bielsalmighty

                                So you go back, recap half of those nodes and wind up with ~41 CP. Still a lot more than the 20 you'd get for the same amount of work. All that does is prove the point that Dom is FAR too much work for FAR too little reward. By the time Dom is even worth the time of day, 20CP is a drop in the ocean and the wars as good as decided.

                        • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
                          LifeSong1
                          1. Diminishing Return - Agree that it needs to be removed
                          2. Clan Numbers - No penalty should be added for adding new members as clans still need to be able to recruit. Instead, they need to either only allow members in the clan at the time of the start of the clan to contribute or make it so only the first 5 that you add will contribute, and no more.   But adding penalties to clans who are trying to grow just doesn't make sense.
                          3. Opt-in option - I'd be okay with that. Though I do like that every clan is ultimately automatically included in this. If they go the opt-in route, they need to announce them much sooner than what they are announcing right now.
                          4. Bonus Clan XP - There is supposedly some Clan XP rewards, but this is never documented and explained and no clue what we actually earn. Any bonus clan XP they can reward will help motivate clans and their members to help.
                            • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
                              canadac4

                              Call of duty elite featured the same clan recruitment control. Once you accepted a challenge, only those in the clan counted towards the final top six scores. I really disliked having to opt-in for each challenge before, and should for some reason you miss the change to sign up you could potentially be left out for a week.

                            • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
                              perkachu

                              Inactive clans need to be demoted in divisions.   We had one clan that scored 0 points and another that scored once for about 9 points.  This really ruins and creates balance issues inv the war. Instead of having other clans help in depleting a Clans win on a node, we were left with doing it all ourselves,  plus recapturing it.  It also gave us a little of an advantage because the team in second had to do the same with us.  I applaud the effort they made in mounting a comeback, bit inv the last day we just demolished everything!  Jumped to a 100 point lead because other clan were inactive and they couldn't compete with a clan who has players in two parts of the world (big part of our strat).  For this, I think points   .  A node should degrade every hour by themselves if a clan doesn't play them.  This would create the need to actually defend or replay the game mode after a cap, plus help out in the balance scheme when you oft have clans not doing much at all.

                              I have to agree with the one guy who said there is not point in defending  really.   We never did.  We would just cap something else, then recapture the loss.  Need a to be a little more of a bonus to actually defend.

                              • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
                                OUHATEME

                                I Think the diminishing score should have a limit say half of the original score, i don't think the fifth clan to cap a node should recieve the same reward as the first. Perhaps there is a better way to adjust the scoring but for now the first to cap any node should get the most for it. Not getting into the start time arguement , no matter what day or time someone doesn't like it.

                                Each division should have a range on size if you stay withing the range new members count , if not they don't . Example 36-41 if the clan with 38 gets 2 new members they count if the clan with 41 members grits any new members they don't count. Just let us know the ranges. No penalty as some clans are recruiting properly and not trying to exploit a loophole.

                                An added clan Xp incentive would be great. Would also like to see boosting clans dealt with , from some of the post I've read about boosting this really needs to go.

                                  • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
                                    canadac4

                                    To take the idea even further, it should be based individually on each clan. If one clan repeatedly takes and loses blitz for example, the points should be worth less. If another clan takes blitz for the first time, it should be worth the same value, or maybe a little less than the first capture.

                                  • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
                                    Bielsalmighty

                                    I say any new members brought in mid-war/mid-placement do not count towards wins, otherwise its still exploitable.

                                    • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
                                      ctandc72

                                      You made some great points.  I'll give a response from a different point of view.

                                      We are a platinum division clan.  We're a new clan - we've all played together before, but we started this clan for Ghosts.

                                      Most of us were excited about giving Clan Wars a try.

                                      We are 90% a Hardcore Clan - we knew we'd have to play Core game modes for Clan Wars and that's fine.

                                      We came in 2nd place in the first clan war with over 200 CP.

                                      The clan we played against apparently doesn't have to work or go to school etc.  What started as a huge lead for us (we captured almost every node right off the bat) was whittled down by a clan that "mysteriously" grew in numbers in a short time.

                                       

                                      After using the app and paying attention to what CP was rewarded at different capture times, I was able to figure out the scoring system. 

                                       

                                      Apparently in the 2nd clan war (Oahu) the CP scoring is based on Clans in your war, Clan Division, Wins required to take a node etc.  That's all well and good, except 99% of the CP values seem based on the in game XP bonus for that game mode, and the FIRST Capture of a node is ALWAYS the most valuable.

                                       

                                      The Domination mode in our clan war required 280 wins (yes 280) to capture the node.  It was worth 37 CP for the clan who worked on it for almost 2 days.  They ended up a distant 3rd on our clan war.

                                       

                                      Core TDM required 140 wins but netted us 10 CP For the first capture?  Really?  We never bothered with it again.

                                       

                                      The scoring system seems hit or miss - but fine, make it a mystery and clans have to plan their strategy AFTER guessing the initial CP values.

                                       

                                      What about clans who send clan invites to our top 10 players DURING THE CLAN WAR?  This is a clan we were competing with. 

                                       

                                      Apparently this same clan also sent clan invites to the top players in the other clans competing in our clan war.  If those people joined, wouldn't that DIRECTLY SKEW the results of the PRESENT CLAN WAR in their favor?  They are adding to THEIR OWN NUMBERS and REDUCING THE NUMBERS of their DIRECT COMPETITORS at the same time. REALLY?

                                       

                                      This same clan, who went on to win our clan war - they were able to post some magic wins in HCTDM.  Normally - okay, that's fine.  At the time we had TWO FULL PARTIES on and winning.  We're a HARDCORE clan remember?  We opened the node, that put this clan at ZERO wins.  We then got an 18 win lead on them.  That's 18-0.  This was LATE at night, when hardcore lobbies are harder to find and we were concentrating on maps that didn't take the full game time to post a win.  We NEVER went the full length of a match on this race - we reached the 75 kills required before time ran out.  WITHOUT exception.

                                       

                                      This clan then posted 12 wins in HCTDM in less than 5 minutes. Huh?  How does that work?  Okay they had two full parties running - I get that.  So they went from 0-12.  Got it.  Then THREE MINUTES LATER they post 12 more wins.  What?  It takes at least a minute or so to load the next game. 

                                       

                                      The answer became clear later that night when myself and one other clan member jumped in a lobby that was FILLED with members of the SAME CLAN.  Apparently when you get stuck at "Waiting for players" late at night - and you're running with a full party - you just get your clan members / friends to hit "join game" and then you have 10 out of the 12 players (in our case we witnessed)  as members of your clan.  We then watched every member on our team LEAVE a minute or so into the game.  That left just us two.  If we hadn't of been there and two more of that particular clan HAD been - it would have been a 30 second wait and that clan would post 6 wins from FORFEIT.  In HCTDM - in less than a 3 minute time span.

                                       

                                      I'm not paranoid. It's happening.  Clans are simply gaming the system.

                                       

                                      If we get beat straight up by another clan - so be it.  We wanted to do clan wars to COMPETE.  And oddly enough we got thrown in a lobby playing DIRECTLY AGAINST the clan who won our clan war.  This was during clan wars.  We wiped the floor with them 5 matches in a row before they left.

                                       

                                      So if I want to win a clan war, and don't care how I do it - I have options.  I can get members of the opposing clans in that clan war to JOIN my clan - thus inflating my numbers and reducing the competitors numbers at the same time.

                                       

                                      I can wait until the hours where a lesser amount of players are on - especially in certain game modes- and I can fill the lobby with friends and / or clan members and get 6 FREE wins from a quick forfeit.

                                       

                                      I can also recruit friends to join my clan WHILE the clan war is going on.  So if my clan was 20 members and matched against clans of similar numbers for the clan war, I can end up DOUBLING the size of my clan WHILE THE CLAN WAR is going on.  Now my clan is double the size of my opponents, increasing my chances to win even more.

                                       

                                      You want to encourage clans to play other game modes, thus more people playing your game?

                                       

                                      FIX THESE GLARING ISSUES. 

                                       

                                      Simple as that.

                                        • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
                                          SwtAznGrl

                                          The first clan war was ridicules, the second one was even more.  Same thing happened with our clan in the first war.  The leading clan jumped from having 40 members to 85 members in a matter of days which means we fell from first place to third place with no chance of recovering due to the size of our clan.  what really pissed me off was that the team in first place sent request to our members to join their clan and many left because they wanted to be in a big clan just so that they could win because size does matter in this war.  this week I joined a couple of the old clan members to see how they were doing in their clan war and I knew right away that they were boosting for wins because everyone immediately left and took themselves offline. Lol. 

                                           

                                          This week we were up against I have to admit, a really good clan who we knew we couldn't beat.  They had too many good players with no lives plus they were up by 60 members so it was pointless trying to capture a node when we wouldn't have a chance of winning the war so we quit.  The clans are too unbalanced with too many wins needed to capture a node.  400 for TDM.  Maybe for a clan with 100 members but with only our 40 and only half of us are active it would take all day and night.  Needless to say unless we recruit randoms right away who are willing to even participate and reach the max of 100 members in the clan, we will prob keep losing to clans with more members.

                                        • Re: An open letter to Beachhead - Clan wars
                                          St_-_ANG3R

                                          I couldn't agree with you more on just about every aspect of your letter, especially the section about dividing by regions.  We have finished in 2nd place twice because of this issue, we are in the US.  The Oahu war was the worst of the two.  We actually held first place for the two and a half days of the war, but come Monday while my entire clan was at work or school, and the ones that were home couldn't sign in to the psn because of maintenance, our 2nd place European rival was able to conquer 4 nodes, receiving enough points to crush our 22 point lead and pass us by 8 points in the final 15 minutes of the war.  My clan was devistated and highly P*ssed off.  It was extremely unfair that we had to sit there and watch the app and could do nothing about it,  and what made it worse was the maintenance shutdown during the time, we had enough players available for one full party that couldn't get on due to maintenance.  To top it off, the nodes that they received 8 - 10 points for capping that morning only gave us 2 points when we capped them.  This system is flawed, to say the extreme least.