26 Replies Latest reply: Dec 30, 2013 2:07 PM by CLEAR RTC RSS

    A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..

    maccabi

      So as the hardcore players know, when IW knee jerked ricochet onto us in mw3 it caused some major issues issues with the game afterwards, these it turned out were not addressed and are still present in Ghosts as once again we have ricochet, even though we jumped up and down and went blue in the face pointing them out

       

      Now i am not going to get into the whole for or against ricochet argument there's already enough discussions on that to reply too .... and I do "get" each side of the debate but ricochet is broken that is a fact.

      So what I do want addressed is the issues adding ricochet has caused as these imo ruin the game play experience nowadays for a lot of players .

       

      So my suggestion is turn friendly fire OFF... now I know some of you just spat your drinks over your screens and have now assumed I have gone bat s**t crazy by suggesting removing one of the most basic tenets of hardcore but here me out before passing judgement.

       

      The simple fact is IW are not going to spend major time recoding to fix the issues ricochet added ( I am basing this on the fact these are issues present in mw3 and not addressed), so we are left with two options currently

      1) return hardcore to its correct state and have the 3 tk and penalize rules reinstated

      or

      2) keep the status quo where ricochet is on and we are subjected to numerous issues

       

      So what would turning off friendly fire really do..

      it would eliminate all the ways teammates can now troll you thanks to ricochet , for example stealing care packages, walking in front of you on purpose when you shoot ect

      Team mates shooting your equipment to complete challenges

      Team mates shooting you dogs to complete challenges

      Randomly dying because a car / object you shot once exploded as a team mate walked past it

      Randomly dying as an enemy caused an ied to explode when a team mate was in range

      Being flashed and stunned because you threw a tac nade over a wall and the blast radius hit a team mate

      Dying over and over and over again because you called in the airstrike field orders on warhawk

      Being able to shoot down your own helis or team mates helis to complete various challenges

       

      Now if you are still thinking i've been sucking on the wrong koolaid again..

       

      heres a question for you to consider before passing judgement on my idea...

      How many times honestly have you died in hardcore as a result of ricochet as it was supposed to be intended to work? .. ie because you accidentally (or on purpose for the trolled) shot a team mate.

      for me and most of the people I play with the answer is maybe a handful of times since the games been out.

       

      Now ask yourself how many times have you died due to one of the issues ricochet bought up.. for me I lost count after a few days of playing

       

      Now ask yourself and be totally honest how many of you would even actually notice if friendly fire was on or off if ricochet was the only option for hardcore?

       

      Now reply and tell me im mad

       

      * disclaimer Ricochet NEEDS to be on in snr and snd I have NO issue with that at all.     For me hardcore has always been more about the other basic tenets like lower halth faster gameplay and less clutter on the screen than whether or not i can aim straight

        • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
          Bielsalmighty

          I'm pretty sure that a good portion of your HONEST Ricochet deaths have been due to me surprising you. Funny to see the shoe on the other foot for a change *takes multiple demerits to the chin*

          • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
            FalconR6

            Disclaimer- I haven't played HC in Ghosts yet. Purely due to the population factor of X1 - after Christmas this Aussie will want some HC action.

            Turn friendly fire off - makes me cringe as teamwork and aim is supposed to be a pillar of HC. And friendly fire rewards your team for being such ( as long as the game is being played in correct spirit)

            however, I am certainly in the "no ricochet" camp. So - mac, I don't particularly like your suggestion,,, but it is pragmatic -- thus agreed.

            • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
              rankismet

              I honestly think you need a rabies shot.

               

              No really...

              ... you've been fluff-balled one too many times.

               

               

               

              Fire discipline is what separates the men from the boys. It's silly you can shoot through a mate and into an enemy with impunity. Taking one piss, poor design decision with respects to ricochet and compounding it with an even worse one?

               

              I will pass.

               

               

               

               

              Let me know how the rabies shots go.

              • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..

                I very much prefer the 3 tk's and ur out over ricochet, the only complaint I ever had was when I got a tk from killstreaks I wasnt controlling.

                • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
                  nicedrewishfela

                  Read this through and been sitting here thinking about it.... (Don't tell my boss)

                   

                  You have a valid point. Ricochet is a pain in the neck, there is no doubt about it. And it most certainly is NOT hardcore...sorry to all of those who have drifted over to HC and are desperately trying to make it play like Core. I have become pretty disciplined over the years and this hasn't been a huge issue for me in this game, there are times I forget Ricochet is even on. But it does rear it's ugly head when a grenade bounces the wrong way, an unaware teammate strolls into a gunfight (Always amazes me that it can take several shots to kill an enemy, but a teammate can walk into one stray bullet and we are shipping him home in a wooden box), or, as you pointed out,  the barrel/car/whatever I got one bullet into chooses to explode the instant a teammate walks by. Ricochet is NOT the answer.

                   

                  But then I ponder what Rank said above, and he is 100% right as well (Not about the Rabies). It isn't HC to simply remove FF either. One of my annoyances with Core is that very fact. It takes away a level of strategy when you can just fire willy-nilly, throw grenades like beads at a parade, drop airstrikes anywhere you please... and I think that leads to some of the chaos you get in Core modes that I just would hate to see in HC. If I drop a rocket/airstrike/etc onto teammates... there NEEDS to be a consequence. If I Fire indiscriminately... there NEEDS to be a consequence. If I chuck a grenade without thought... there NEEDS to be a consequence. Otherwise, you take out some of the tactical and awareness aspects that makes Hardcore what it is.

                   

                  3 TK and out is still the best system I have seen. Not perfect by any means, but fair. People will whine about their Killstreaks killing teammates... but I would say that in Hardcore you need to be aware of what streaks you use and where you place them. I say turn RIC off, and go back to the 3 TK system. First TK you get an extended respawn time upon your next death. Make it progressively longer the next time, and kick after the third.

                   

                  I see where you are coming from Macc... but turning FF off is just not the right answer for Hardcore. If I had to choose between FF Off and Ricochet... I'd have to go with Ricochet, as much as it pains me to say so.

                  • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
                    ill-lll

                    > How many times honestly have you died in hardcore as a result of ricochet as it was supposed to be intended to work? .. ie because you accidentally (or on purpose for the trolled) shot a team mate.

                     

                    Less than 20 since release, and the majority of those are due to the bug that has existed in every iteration of the series: names not appearing over heads due to a tiny object like a plant leaf blocking them. Uniform training is easy but it's these bush suits that are messing it up this go.

                     

                    > Now ask yourself how many times have you died due to one of the issues ricochet bought up

                     

                    Several hundred.

                     

                    > than whether or not i can aim straight

                     

                    Still need the ability to turn off Aim Assist in multiplayer. I can aim straight but aim assist doesn't let me half the time.

                     

                     

                     

                     

                    The delayed respawn punishment is better than 3 TK and you are out, due to all of the exact same issues that drive everyone crazy over ricochet. The people who troll you with ricochet will do it just the same with trying to get you kicked. Add the fact that non-user controlled killstreaks will cause TK's is part of the problem. I've had a TK from a guard dog in this game already, and several back in BO. It happens when the dog jumps to attack an enemy and a friendly stabs that enemy and gets bit instead. That kind of trash shouldn't even be possible.

                    Until they fix the underlying issues with the way you get ricochet killed (or be punished), neither system is fair. Delayed respawn is better if they could use the "ban" flag Treyarch had to prevent people from exiting the game and rejoining to clear their timer, and upped the time interval by a larger margin.  Also, the "ban" system hasn't ever worked for hosts, was insanely abused, and since we're still in a hybrid environment it would continue to be a problem.

                     

                    We are better off beating the dead horse, going through it all again, and try to get them to fix the problems instead of turning off Friendly Fire or going back to other, just-as-bad systems.

                    • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
                      ghamorra

                      I think it should be specific elements where friendly fire is turned off. Bullets should still have ricochet but something stupid like shooting a car or barrel once shouldn't. I also think equipment shouldn't simply due to the fact that I have run into far too many trolls who shoot my equipment while standing over it. I'm not sure how I feel on killstreaks though, one bad call can kill you numerous times but then again you have the option of non-lethal streaks which in HC are better most of the time anyways (personally).

                      • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
                        rlbl

                        I think I agree with Ghamorra...

                         

                        Basically (Ricochet or 3 Strikes):

                         

                        - Friendly bullet fire is ON (this will not stop people from running in front of you though)

                         

                        But that is all. So if the following happens, it is no fault to you

                         

                        - Car on fire explodes (an explosion from your nade does count)

                        - Barrels on Fire

                        - Friendly triggering your equipment (in fact, if a friendly triggers your equipment it could as a strike against them)

                        - AI controlled streaks

                        - Air Support streaks (even if user controlled - this one is iffy)

                         

                        One possible exception: If an enemy trips your equipment, and a friend is close by.

                         

                        Changing HC to the point where friendly fire is OFF negates the spirit of the intention of HC, and turning it into want some of us want (which is not always a good thing). The spirit is: There is a penalty or friendly fire (along with no HUD and reduced health etc...)

                         

                        Side Bar: your disclaimer is your opinion (which you indicated twice), which is kinda what I am talking about. Nothing wrong with having opinions, but insisting on changes based on one's opinion gets dicey.  Although yes, I have died quite a few times because of issues with ricochet, I have gotten kicked (3 strikes) many times because of 3 strikes.  I personally prefer the 3-strike mode over ricochet, but they each have the same fundamental problem that you can die/get kicked because of trolls, streaks, and environment problems (you cannot stop people from running in front of your gun, but you can stop the equipment destroyers)

                          • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
                            maccabi

                            rlbl wrote:

                             

                             

                            Changing HC to the point where friendly fire is OFF negates the spirit of the intention of HC,

                             

                            just like ricochet, while i was being serious this thread was also to highlight the issues still not addressed by adding ricochet

                              • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
                                rlbl

                                I (personally) do not believe ricochet was meant to "fix" anything.  But before I make that kind of bold statement, I would ask the following (my apologies for not play HC before MW2):

                                 

                                - what was in HC in COD4

                                - what was in HC in W@W

                                 

                                I know that ricochet was in MW2, however not all HC games had ricochet, so I would also ask what was the solution for the non-ricochet games (3 strikes, timeouts, etc...), as I cannot remember.

                                 

                                The penalty in ricochet as that you die when killing a friendly (deliberate or not).  I personally do not like that.. not ricochet itself, but the fat the a player is penalized for killing a friendly when it was not their fault.

                                 

                                Currently, neither ricochet nor the 3-strike methods work well (not saying which is better, because that is personal preference. I personally prefer the 3 strike rule).  My personal ideal HC would look something like (as I eluded to before):

                                 

                                - FF is on

                                - Anti-troll measures : If a friendly tries to suicide themselves on your equipment, it does not count towards a strike to you (maybe it should count a strike to them for a suicide)

                                - Killstreaks should not count as a strike unless you have 100% control of what you are firing at (like a controlled sentry, AGR, etc).  Air strikes etc should not count.

                                - Exploding cars, barrels etc should not count unless they exploded by you throwing a bomb

                                 

                                So basically, the only way strikes count against you is killing someone from shooting them, or nading them.

                                 

                                * one can never stop idiots running in front of your gun, unfortunately. 

                                 

                                One thing I like about ricochet: People cannot kill you for your care package.

                            • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
                              biron_w

                              I'd be happy with friendly fire off but still the rest of hardcore as it is.

                              But I'd also be happy with the return of FF.

                              Basically, anything other than bloody ricochet. It's a terrible idea.

                              I've only been killed a few times by shooting a team mate but I've died loads(or more correctly just randomly dropped dead) because an IED or whatever went off when a team mate was near by. This is in no way fair at all.

                              • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
                                nuttin2say

                                I don't like ricochet and, after people would purposely get kicked from losing matches in BO2, I don't like the 3 strikes rule, either.

                                 

                                What I do like is that every time you team kill, there is an increased delay in respawn.

                                 

                                1TK = normal respawn

                                2TH = 15 seconds to respawn

                                3TK = 30     "        "     "

                                4TK = 45     "        "     "

                                5TK = 60     "        "     "

                                 

                                Those numbers could be tinkered with. Maybe make them longer, say start at 30 seconds until respawn at the second TK or something like that.

                                  • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
                                    rlbl

                                    They had something like that at the beginning of MW3.  It got switched up for ricochet.

                                      • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
                                        nuttin2say

                                        Reading your comments, rlbl, I remember them changing it up somewhere in MW2. I want to think that it was because of the Javelin ... people team killing on the first spawn. But in CO4 and WaW, what I described earlier was very close to what they had. It did not prevent troll killing, true, but it did limit what they could do. Usually trolls would get frustrated at having to sit out for a full minute and just back out of the lobby. Isn't that what we want?

                                         

                                        Hey, I'm guilty of accidentally killing teammates just as well as anyone else. I've even been kicked from games for too much TKing. But, overall, it is not difficult to avoid killing teammates. In all of COD history, the only two maps where I thought it was "easy" to TK were Shipment on COD4 and Rust on MW2. But those were two of the smallest maps in COD history, too (if not THE smallest maps ever). IMO, on those maps, TKing was a given. On Shipment, as hard as it was to not TK, there was a huge effort to avoid it - otherwise you had to sit out for up to a full minute.

                                         

                                        As far as the streak rewards killing teammates, I do have to disagree with you there. Without that, at some point you'll end up with another Chopper Gunner or AC130 that can run up easy 100 kill streaks.

                                          • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
                                            rlbl

                                            On the topic of streaks:

                                             

                                            The problem was (best example was BO1), if you got a carpet bomb, it was an automatic kick out of the game.  That made no sense.  Even if one got an AC130 (as an example), there is nothing stopping someone from running out and getting blown up by the canon fire if they were close to a target. 

                                             

                                            Maybe if there was a level of a timeout (not severe) then such a penalty could work for streaks, but it still is not the ultimate solution.

                                      • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
                                        NoLifeKing32

                                        HC Ghosts is pretty much the low point for HC COD, you mentioned so many broken things, its like they half-assed HC. But the shotgun slug problem needs to be fixed ASAP, can't believe they have let it go on for this long.

                                          • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
                                            maccabi

                                            NoLifeKing32 wrote:

                                             

                                            HC Ghosts is pretty much the low point for HC COD, you mentioned so many broken things, its like they half-assed HC. But the shotgun slug problem needs to be fixed ASAP, can't believe they have let it go on for this long.

                                            In Iw's defense they weren't aware of it till a few weeks ago its just a small over sight that slipped into the game as whoever did the weapon stats didnt account for hardcore having 30 health

                                          • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..

                                            I have an idea they should use MW2's style which is if you kill your team mate they add 30 seconds to your respond time and it keeps adding up every time someone kills their team mates.

                                            • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..
                                              xxphenomen4xx

                                              Ricochet but maybe you dont have as much damage against yourself. To hard core and nobody wants to join the lobby!?

                                              • Re: A rather radical suggestion for IW's version of hardcore..

                                                I had started a thread on Ricochet and was pointed here, so my thoughts are below.  Perhaps we could have the OP edit the first post with the different idea's on how to resolve the issue with Ricochet and the Pros and cons of each.  That's a bunch of work for the OP, but hey having it all thought out and weighted for the devs couldn't hurt.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Ricochet personally I'd like to see it gone, but that is based on my personal experience.  I have died several times because a team mate decided to lye down on an IED I placed somewhere and it exploded when the enemy ran near it.  Now is it just me or is it wrong to think the person who should be killed is the one who laid down on an active explosive?   Also I mean if I attack a position in domination and there is a guy defending it and an IED from his team goes off, why does the guy I am attacking not also die... because of Ricochet one of his team mates elsewhere randomly dies but the guy who decided to lye down on an explosive is fine and continues to guard the point.

                                                 

                                                Whether Ricochet or not this should not fall on the person who planted the explosive its just ridiculous.

                                                 

                                                Increasingly I have been in long range fire fights, i.e. a few shots exchange between me and an enemy player and a member of my team just decided that's the time to run in front of you.. not behind you, thus I die from a Ricochet and the enemy gets the kill on the player who ran out in front.  Or the even more common I see you shooting at someone but I can get in front of you and steal the kill with no consequences oh and I get to die cause you're a jerk.

                                                 

                                                Greifers... omg they are so much worse in Ricochet  they can just keep running in front of you and staying on you until you kill yourself just trying to play the game, hoping they can elicit some reaction to post to you tube about ragers.  At least without Ricochet they could only kill me twice before being booted now they can inter-fear the whole game long yippee.

                                                 

                                                Pro's to Ricochet:

                                                No one steals your care package on your team by killing you.

                                                Team mates cannot intentionally kill all S&D team mates at the start of the game

                                                You don't get kicked when you accidentally kill THREE Team mates in a single game

                                                 

                                                Con's

                                                Team mates run in front of you intentionally kill you

                                                Team mates that don't care your firing run in front of you kill you

                                                Team mates that are oblivious to anything going on (Christmas n00bs I am looking at you) kill you.

                                                Team mates who lie down on IED's or other explosives kill you

                                                Greifers have a hay day