27 Replies Latest reply on Jan 31, 2014 6:24 AM by W_E_A_P_0_N_11 RSS

    Ignorance of the CoD Community.

      So, all over these forums you see people bashing on the e-sports community. People bash on their "inability to adapt." They say "pro" players use the e-sports rules as a crutch. All too often do I see people say that IEDs, C4, etc. aren't in GB/MLG rules because of an inability for "pro" players to adapt to these things. Overall, the community largely complains about it's MLG/GB brethren. Many other games (eg Halo) have a specific ruleset for their esports play. These rules are determined by groups of individuals (pro players) that devotes days to learning the games and finding the most balance, skillful ruleset.


      Now, I don't do GBs nor am I MLG by any means; however, I am not ignorant enough to believe that I know more about skill or CoD than people that devote huge portions of their lives to this game. I would like to know, though, why other people think so lowly of the e-sports community. Is it ignorance/arrogance? Or is this community filled with prodigious gamers that never venture into e-sports?

        • Test #1
          Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

          I think a lot of it, certainly my annoyance with the MLG community, is they got an entire game catered to them and the result is the worst game Treyarch ever made (speaking of Black Ops 2 of course). Its not personal on any level, I don't know a single MLG gamer, I'm sure they are all cool guys, but when did they become so important that the world's most popular franchise would dedicate an entire game to making them happy, while everyone else was completely ignored. 


          BO2 did public perception of MLG no favors, I remember during the pre-launch, Vahn was talking about how all of the maps were "MLG style" maps. Then the game came out, and there was an overwhelming response of "Wow, these maps are HORRID, if this is what MLG likes, FIND A NEW GAME." I thought MW3's maps were bad, but BO2's launch maps were the worst ever, and then the DLC maps, some of those rank even lower, Magma is probably the worst COD map of all time. Oh and thank you Treyarch for making headglitching a main feature of COD, is that how MLG plays? If so, FIND A NEW GAME. That was the immediate reaction to BO2.


          And then to have MLG pretty much dictate what got nerfed and what got buffed in the game, they threaten to ban something, and Treyarch nerfs it. And don't think it wasn't incredibly noticeable how after the COD championships were over, and some team won, support for BO2 pretty much vanished. No meaningful patches occurred after April.


          Playlist support was pathetic, oh but LP got plenty of new things and adjustments, but public got Arms Race (joke) and One-Flag CTF (worse joke). The popularity of CTF pretty much died after BO1 in public matches, so why give us a spinoff, nobody asked for it. Oh and Hardpoint, the public asked for randomized HP spawns right away, in November. No response, the result, community abandoned HP, one of the least played playlists, and now, its out.


          So yeah, the public wants its game back, after all, we are 99% of the playerbase. I don't know whose idea it was to put Esports rules in Clan vs Clan, but I personally won't be returning to it. I have no desire to play this game with no killstreaks. Even though the killstreaks are devalued, I still use them. And want to use them. I don't know why MLG thinks killstreaks aren't competitive, there is a counter to all of them. I don't know why MLG has a problem with marksman rifles, I mean, they are high skill weapons, casuals don't do well with them, and they have huge negatives. Danger Close, ok, yeah, shouldn't be in the game. Go ahead and ban that. But noob tubes? Yeah, there is a counter, a great one, called Blast Shield. No really, it will stop a tube. And then 3 more. But nades are allowed. Whatever. If you want to play with special rules, play Private Match, thats why it's there. Its been good enough in every game before BO2. Its still good enough.

          Last Edited: Jan 29, 2014 9:01 PM
            • Test #1
              Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

              Thanks for an actual argument by the way. It's nice to read a thought-out, coherent argument even if it is a bit ranty. So good reply even though you don't necessarily agree with me.


              Yes, Black Ops 2 was catered to the "MLG" community. This lead to it having some of the best features in any CoD to date. The aspect that comes to my mind right away is BO2's league play. A playlist with skill-based matchmaking and ranking is always a plus in any game (that and not tracking K/D.) A lot of people argue that BO2 is better than this game (I disagree and think it was utter garbage.) BO2 had pretty solid weapon balance for CoD and an intelligent use of the perk system, though. The maps were, as you said, god awful. They felt completely catered to run and gun gameplay. Never before did I think this is what the MLG community wanted. I always enjoyed Infinity Ward maps (before MW3 that is). They played more strategically than Treyarch maps. They always had a decent number of power positions and choke points along with the right number of flanking routes. Treyarch maps always felt like a cluster**** of flanking routes for running around like a chicken with its head cut off. I can't help but think that BO2 maps were more catered to the casuals than the MLG community (this might be my naiveté.)


              MLG is all objective based. Objective-based games add another level of teamwork to the game, and MLG is all about teamwork. That's one of the reasons playlist support was odd. They wanted to find more objective-based games that support team work. Assault kill streaks promote selfish game play and can turn the tide of a game if a player gets one. This eliminates a need for teamwork. Simply have someone play conservatively for a 12-kill streak, and chances are that team wins. MLG players want the results of a game to be based on teamwork and gun skill, not who got a 12-kill streak first. Support kill streaks are banned as they can also turn the tide of a game with little team work (plus, they are basically given out for free.)


              Everyone on these forums at one point or another calls for some gun to be nerfed. Hell, I've called for a lot of guns to be nerfed. I know the developers won't nerf guns based on my opinion, though. Just like they won't based on whining on the forums. They turn to the more experienced pro players. Pro players know more about game balance than your average casual. Also, whenever anything is changed in a game, people will complain. People don't like change- especially if it affects them in a negative manner (e.g. their beloved MSBS gets nerfed.)


              Ideally, a game would be balanced according to the wishes of the pro community. However, this creates a larger skill gap and makes the game less fun for casuals, so there is more complaining. Without a skill-based ranking and matching system, this method of balance is doomed to fail as it will turn the casuals away. With a skill-based matching system, though, it would be ideal for everyone involved. It would be less frustrating for all and more competitive for those that want competition.

              Last Edited: Jan 29, 2014 9:39 PM
                • Test #1
                  Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                  How is the MSBS overpowered when all but three assault rifles are fully automatic versions of the MSBS only they actually have less recoil then the MSBS?

                  Last Edited: Jan 29, 2014 9:46 PM
                  • Test #1
                    Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                    League Play was a good idea on paper but its ranking system was never right and it just received way too much attention while the rest of the playlists were ignored. I didn't like LP because it was core and in BO2 core was an awful experience, traditionally I am a HC only player and BO2 was no exception. I was more than miffed at the HC launch list with not only the amount of gamemodes but the actual gamemodes themselves were poor choices. Those got straightened out but the number was never increased and yet a deeply flawed feature received support throughout the game's lifecycle despite the fact there was no support anywhere else.


                    I gave up on LP early because the placement system didn't make any sense and I was getting thrown into games with people that weren't even close to what I was ranked. And most of the time, it was against people that were way worse than me. But other times, I was completely overmatched. The matchmaking for LP never worked. And I knew right away when they implemented an objective moshpit in LP it was DOA. I was like, if you think that people aren't going to quit a game of DOM when they are getting curbstomped, regardless of the quitting penalty, you are delusional. And guess what the moshpit was indeed DOA. Complete failure. Its perfectly ok to have LP, but its not ok to only care about LP. And with a game that had some many issues with lag and health and sponging bullets, MLG support should be last on the list of priorities.


                    Fast forward to Ghosts and the cracks in perfomance are really starting to show, yet Esports is still receiving plenty of support. 

                    Last Edited: Jan 29, 2014 11:23 PM
                    • Test #1
                      Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                      To be completely honest Surreal, I thinks it's just arrogance that many self proclaimed 'MLG' people exhibit IMO. The only MLG tournament I played in was HALO CE in Boston when I was still in college. What I find funny about all the "banning" of things by MLG is that in that game, over shield, guns and Invizo all spawned on a time basis. So people would literally attached stop watches to there controllers to know when something would re spawn. That was OK in those days. I met some nice people and some real arrogant people too. It just seems like the latter has taken over as "important" when it comes to design on COD, that's all.


                      Of course, I don't know you so I won't judge you but that's the main reason for the "hate".


                      EDIT: If you truly want those rules in Clan v. Clan, I have no problem with that as I don't play it much but i'm sure there are people who like to play Clan v. Clan and aren't "MLG" fanatics.

                      Last Edited: Jan 30, 2014 1:01 PM
                    • Test #1
                      Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                      Well said, NoLifeKing32 well said!!

                      Last Edited: Jan 29, 2014 10:51 PM
                    • Test #1
                      Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                      If the MLG were actually competitive there would be either no perks or only a specific perk tier and they would all be using the same gun type and all of them would only be using Semtex and Frags and they wouldn't have sticky aim or aim assist on. They wouldn't be banning something just because they find it overpowered. It's either strict rules or no rules in order to be competitive not in between in a way that caters to only their play style.

                      Last Edited: Jan 29, 2014 9:35 PM
                        • Test #1
                          Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                          Yes, an ideally competitive game has equal starts. That's what made Halo:CE-Halo 3 so competitive.

                          Last Edited: Jan 29, 2014 9:47 PM
                          • Test #1
                            Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                            My MLG-

                            1 Sniper player for both teams

                            1 AR player for both teams

                            2 SMG players for both teams


                            Each class is pre-set so the Sniper would include certain perks that the other classes don't have.  The SMG users would have some perks that the AR users don't have.  Everyone uses the same weapons in each class, such as the AR users would use the same weapon, SMG users would use the same weapon, and the sniper users would use the same weapon.  Attachments would also be pre-set.


                            Basically this would increase the skill gap making it more competitive and harder.  The better teams would actually learn how to play the game differently and more strategically.

                            Last Edited: Jan 29, 2014 11:05 PM
                              • Test #1
                                Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                                This is how the old cod 4 league used to run on pc. 

                                1 sniper, 2 ARs, 2 smgs and 1 lmg.

                                Each player had 1 Frag and I think only the sniper was allowed claymores.

                                Worked brilliantly and made for some great tactical games.

                                Last Edited: Jan 30, 2014 1:14 PM
                                • Test #1
                                  Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                                  Now that I could agree upon as being a competitive play style and setup. But how they do it now.. not a chance in hell. Though I think there should maybe be a setup for either lmg or marksman rifles to be used in-place of either the sniper or the ar as well. Still same limitations otherwise.


                                  my biggest beef is how many so called pro's/mlg/gb's act like they are gods gift to gaming and no one but them can ever understand the game on a deep meta level but them so only their view is valid or important to how the game should play.


                                  There are hundreds if not thousands of players that can do the exact same as mlg/gb/pro teams but choose not too for they play the game primarily for fun. Not everyone that plays is competitive or wants to play competitive all the time. Nor should they have to either.


                                  You don't need to be in mlg/gb or play for a pro team to have a deep and thorough understanding of the games mechanics or tactics on how to play the game, to learn the spawns, the routes, the sight lines or which weapon is better against what other weapon at what range when fired from what position with what attachment and perk set.

                                  Last Edited: Jan 30, 2014 4:30 PM
                              • Test #1
                                Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                                Wait, the BLOPS2 maps were made for MLGers?


                                Holy ****, well, I literally hated every map from that game, except for MAYBE raid.  No, I disliked that map too but that was my party's favorite. I liked nuketown and studio, oh wait those were regurgitated.

                                Last Edited: Jan 29, 2014 9:43 PM
                                  • Test #1
                                    Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                                    Yes the main premise behind BO2 was CoD casting and League Play. It became the main driving force after Vahn went and watched a mlg tournament during BO1's life time and then implemented the competitive list before addressing other problems more complained about on the forums.

                                    Last Edited: Jan 30, 2014 5:36 PM
                                  • Test #1
                                    Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                                    More people are against mlg and e-sport because the main focus is on that. Most gamers are casual gamers and they bring in the money.


                                    We got a whole update just for e-sport but we had to wait three months for the first update that adressed the spawns

                                    Without the casual gamers their isn't e-sport but this way the casual gamers will stop. And than? No new gamers to get into e-sports

                                    Last Edited: Jan 29, 2014 10:52 PM
                                      • Test #1
                                        Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                                        The thing is, the game was released hugely catered to casuals, so a whole update for the e-sports community is hardly showing favoritism toward the e-sports community. The shitty spawn system is shitty largely because it is catered to a casual community. It's super dynamic to prevent teams from spawn trapping casual players and turning casual players away from the game.


                                        So, it's really difficult to fix the spawns. They either leave them as super dynamic and random or make them more static and predictable. Either way people will complain. If they are more static, there will be more people complaining about spawn traps. If they are more dynamic, people will complain about getting randomly spawned with the enemy team and getting spawn killed. Changing a spawn system is really lose, lose for developers when a skill-based matching system isn't in place.

                                        Last Edited: Jan 30, 2014 12:47 PM
                                          • Test #1
                                            Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                                            It's not just that update just for mlg.


                                            The devs are only on twitter and they mostly talk to mlg players and big youtubers.

                                            Most nerfs and buffs are when mlg complains. Not only ghosts but also before.


                                            That spawns are hard to do I get that but still spawning in the direct line of fire of an enemy. That should not be possible.

                                            And spawns aren't based on casual gamers it's just bullocks.

                                            And it's not the revenge spawn system which was more toward the casual gamers.

                                            Last Edited: Jan 30, 2014 9:41 PM
                                        • Test #1
                                          Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                                          Hey I like e-sports, MLG because I do believe they bring positive attention to and attract new players to COD.  That being said I don't believe their rules should be ours.  What guns, equipment, etc they might want nerfed or banned shouldn't apply to the masses except where some want to apply those rules in a private match.  But it is what it is and business is just business as they say.  Money always gets catered to and e-sports/MLG/pro players seem to be where the money is.

                                          Last Edited: Jan 29, 2014 11:03 PM
                                          • Test #1
                                            Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                                            Here is the deal. MOST "pro" players (and I use pro VERY loosely), think that anything that they don't like, or something that disrupts a certain playstyle should be gotten rid of. The things that they complain about is literally way over the top and it shows their inability to adapt. I mean they literally have GUNS banned. GUNS. You know, the thing that a first person SHOOTER is based around. If you go back and look at the last 2 COD games and look at the things that are banned/restricted from "pro" play it makes you really wonder just how these people survive in real life. Here is just the SMALL list of restricted items from BO2 that don't include the guns


                                            Restricted Scorestreaks
                                            Hunter Killer
                                            Care Package
                                            Orbital VSAT

                                            Restricted Secondary Weapons

                                            Restricted Attachments
                                            Dual Wield
                                            Grenade Launcher

                                            Restricted Perks

                                            Restricted Lethals
                                            Bouncing Betty

                                            Restricted Tacticals
                                            Shock Charge
                                            Tactical Insertion

                                            Notice how ALL of these are set up against the people who like to tactically hold positions? Now here are the list of banned guns and attachments

                                            Banned Weapons

                                            • FAL OSW

                                            • All Launchers

                                            • Assault Shield

                                            • Peacekeeper

                                            • KAP-40

                                            Banned Attachments

                                            • MMS
                                            • Target Finder
                                            • Launcher
                                            • Select Fire (For FAL and SMR only)
                                            • Thermal (For LMGs only)


                                            Now let's look at Ghosts restricted list


                                            • Restricted Killstreaks

                                            All Assault

                                            All Support

                                            Specialist (All Restricted Perks, See Below)

                                            • Restricted Primary Weapons

                                            MSBS Assault Rifle

                                            All Marksman Rifles

                                            Riot Shield

                                            • Restricted Secondary Weapons

                                            All Launchers


                                            • Restricted Attachments

                                            Grenade Launcher


                                            Rapid Fire

                                            Select Fire


                                            • Restricted Lethals



                                            Canister Bomb


                                            • Restricted Tacticals


                                            Motion Sensor



                                            • Restricted Perks







                                            Now these rules effectively make the game VERY one dimensional and caters to ONE playstyle. They take out pretty much half of the game with these stupid rules and say it makes them BETTER PLAYERS, because they know EXACTLY what the other team can or can't have.

                                            Last Edited: Jan 30, 2014 2:46 PM
                                            • Test #1
                                              Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                                              The issue I have is with this "skill" argument as a whole. Last time I checked this was a video so it does not require skill. It takes practice, that's all. People constantly come on here and boast about how skilled they are because of their stats and think it takes skill.


                                              We shouldn't be throwing around terms like "pro" or "skill" in the discussion. This isn't a job interview it is a game and games are meant to be FUN!

                                              Last Edited: Jan 31, 2014 5:42 AM
                                              • Test #1
                                                Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                                                where is the million dollar prize competition for the majority of the players who play cod as it was designed? and you wonder why there is resentment of esports from the cod community?


                                                The problem with CoDesports (am this is coming from someone who actually enjoys watching esports alot) is it created a them and us scenario, No thought was given to the wider cod community everything was and has been focused on the existing cod esport community.


                                                I do agree certain things have to be removed to make the game competitive but Atvi should've  sat down with representatives from both sides and said ok lets come up with a rule set that you all could enjoy and play .

                                                Last Edited: Jan 31, 2014 6:16 AM
                                                  • Test #1
                                                    Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                                                    I have to agree with you! The only reason they are even able to have these so called "pro" circuits is because of the demand for the game by casual gamers. That's the reason they are able to offer tour salarys and prize money to these "pros". The attitude has become very elitist amongst the MLG/GB crowd and they forget that it's the casual player that is propping them up.

                                                    Last Edited: Jan 31, 2014 6:21 AM
                                                  • Test #1
                                                    Re: Ignorance of the CoD Community.

                                                    MLG are just social degens, who couldnt play a sport in real life, so they had to create one that worked around there social inabilities.. however this is my opinion they also influence a play style that is boring to watch.. if you watch MLG and see how they play.. all they do is camp!.. so freaking boring. i feel like im watching the players i play with on the game.. i definitely do not see how they are considered the "elite" in gaming.. why because they have a scuff, and anytime they actually get into a gun battle they jump shot over and over to try and get a headshot? thats just lame

                                                    Last Edited: Jan 31, 2014 6:24 AM