39 Replies Latest reply: Mar 18, 2014 10:25 AM by maccabi RSS

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    maccabi

      The fact we have  "potentially" (and I am writing this on the premise that this is true) a few people who have had their bans reversed (heck it wouldn't matter if it was only one to be honest) has shown one thing. The process is not 100% infallible.

       

      The moment even a single ban is reversed means the current system needs a complete overhaul, and more importantly this "all bans are final there is no appeal process " stock reply from Atviassist needs to be screwed up and binned never to be uttered again EVER.

       

      A system where people can appeal bans HAS to be instigated. Period. This shouldn't even be a discussion now, it just needs to happen.

       

      There is issues with the ban article repeatedly linked by Atviassist on twitter - Firstly there is a question of "did this answer help" with only one answer -yes. and secondly and more importantly to us on the forums that article ultimately instructs peoples to come to the codforums (as does the game message). So people faced with a ban hit a double whammy of brick walls, and more importantly still have no idea why they were banned in the first place. The article is ambiguous in reasons for bans and punishments in these instances.Compounding the issue was Atviassist seem to have forgotten this forum exists in the last two days,

       

      Just simply change the article (remove the pointless did this help question) add an email link (or form) to a dedicated ban email address that people can use. Give a time frame (I think 5-7 working days is fair) . Done.

       

      End of the day whether or not a ban is justified EVERYONE is entitled to decent customer service and more importantly a basic level of respect, regardless or whether they are guilty or not. All these last few days have done really (regardless of if the bans issues were justified or not)  is cause doubts within the cod community whether or not the system is a "perfect" as we were always meant to believe. when you cause a situation where your core loyal fanbase loses trusts in the system this ultimately hurts the franchise more than anything. This weekend has also shown up numerous failings once again with the support system.

       

      Again regardless of the legitimacy of these bans, just from an outside view of events, watching people be given an impersonal stock answer on twitter, directed to a less than helpful article and then posting here only to see there post locked or another stock answer given or harangued by their peers is wrong.

       

      This behind the curtain *redacted* needs to end, XBL manages quite happily to have a dedicated forum to address bans and the xbl support staff have access to gamertags and reasons for bans and reply as such.  I am not suggesting the same level of openness needs to happen in cod but if a studio issues a ban wave, a list should be sent to atviassist so they can at least tell people WHY they were banned.

       

      /rant

        • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
          Izjar11

          Very very good suggestions Mac,

           

          A few things from this ban wave (and previous I have witnessed)

           

          1- The individual banned never gets a answer on why they were banned

          2- They always, I mean ALWAYS claim innocence (of course its easy to say "wasn't me")

          3- They appear as totally brand new to the forums

          4- Apparently they have no idea you can get banned from doing or saying things online

           

          I believe as you write, a appeal option should be granted given them the opportunity to review what was done or what happened. Yet according to them, all bans are subject to revision (by whom?)

           

          Another thing: I find it curious that the large amount of players who were complaining on cheats in the last two or three weeks was very very high, and then this patch note was released and it affected the Ps3 -360 crowd. Coincidence?

           

          And finally to those who do cheat: Vitanda est improba siren desidia - Horace

            • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
              maccabi

              Izjar11 wrote:

               

               

              2- They always, I mean ALWAYS claim innocence (of course its easy to say "wasn't me")

              3- They appear as totally brand new to the forums

              4- Apparently they have no idea you can get banned from doing or saying things online

               

               

               

               

               

              One thing that was obvious to anyone who has been on these forums for years and gone through posts when ban waves hit, some of these posts in the last few days didn't feel "right" as they weren't the usual types of "I've been banned" posts.

               

              *That is not a statement of anything other than observation

              • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                MadeleineW

                "They always claim innocence."

                 

                The ones who are guilty and know it wouldn't bother posting at all, would they?

                  • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                    FalconR6

                    They do. Claim innocence but can be quickly found on dodgy sites asking for modded lobbies. So yes, people lie.

                    • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                      maccabi

                      MadeleineW wrote:

                       

                      "They always claim innocence."

                       

                      The ones who are guilty and know it wouldn't bother posting at all, would they?

                      yes, we have seen it time and time again on the forums over the years, people will scream blue murder they are innocent , certain claims were easy to disprove when we had elite , but as I said before we have seen numerous times people claim they never did anything wrong , or were "hacked" and it later transpires they asked to join hacked lobbies or have their stats modded .

                      • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                        OUHATEME

                        Actually yes they would post as we have seen numerous times in the past. And then someone finds a site with there name on it  with the cheat that they had done.. In past games they would claim innocence even though there was theatre mode and game history which would clearly show boosting or some other cheat or hack.. You would be surprised at how blatant some of it was and when they got banned would claim they did nothing wrong even though it was proven . So anyone posting how they are innocent whether fair or not they have an uphill battle with it..

                    • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                      FalconR6

                      Me likey the title

                      CS does not get hold of a thread until it's 48-72 hours old (and pushed to shadow)--> huge failure highlighted by the past two days of ban appeals.

                      100% agree on the direction to forums for more info --> it just plays games with those seeking answers.

                      I disagree with naming and shaming. However, being more transparent leads to greater understanding and trust. If folks actually see what is being punished they are deterred from doing it themselves. Unfortunately, many folks disregard toc's. And how many times do we hear - "Why don't they ban people".

                      • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                        OUHATEME

                        As I have never been banned but from reading all of the chaos here the past couple of days regarding it. Wouldn't it be a big help that when the ban is issued to actually send a message to that persons psn or gamer tag with the reason for the ban and if they feel it was unjust a place to appeal.. That would cut out so much of the trying to figure out the why , the who to talk to about it, the what to do about it. My limited understanding of it is they just receive a message saying that they have been banned without much info beyond that. For those that truly did nothing wrong and had this happen to them I can't imagine the bad taste it has left them with. For those of us that only read about it and did not have it happen to them left us with "whew" glad I wasn't part of that whatever it was that happened. Created a level of doubt that should not be there in the banning system when we have been told by reading so many of the copy and paste replies that bans are thoroughly investigated prior to being issued , and are not subject to reversal of the ban.

                        SO YES. The system needs to be improved.

                        • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                          maccabi

                          I forgot to add as well, there needs to be more transparency in situations like this.. if bans are being lifted , that implies either the ban was made in error or an error occurred that is now being rectified, either way it would be nice if we were at least informed or updated.

                            • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                              rankismet

                              The issue is that implies communication.

                               

                              A post on the forums commenting on the ban would have been great and helped Fox, Claire, et al. A follow up post that there are issues with ban wave would have helped. A follow up post that they've resolved the ban wave issues and the timeline to finish would have helped.

                               

                              None of these happened. And I suspect nothing will.

                               

                              Communication with COD in general has been poor for years. The Stealth Clown may not have been the best... but he did communicate.

                            • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                              gambit1969

                              All valid points, i think the way they are handling things at the moment is poor because all they are doing is sending people around in circles like a dog chasing its tail.

                               

                              The system does need to be changed and needs to be more transparent from the customers point of view.  But in saying that no quarter should be given to the guilty.

                                • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                  maccabi

                                  gambit1969 wrote:

                                   

                                    But in saying that no quarter should be given to the guilty.

                                  Completely agree there.

                                  there are obviously instances where guilt is obvious for example when we as we all know the i was banned im innocent posts appear and you google the gamertag and they are on a *popular exploiting site* asking to join xp or modded lobbies*

                                   

                                  but in "situations" where there is the potential for a false positive I think the right thing to do would be to err on the side of caution and either give the benefit of the doubt or issue a warning or much lesser punishment

                                    • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                      gambit1969

                                      I also think they should have greater control over what people are allowed to upload onto you tube and such sites because thats how most of these cheats and exploits are spread around.  One idiot makes a video about it and all of a sudden it spreads like a virus.

                                      They should have sites like these monitored and have these types of videos removed and the poster banned.

                                  • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                    ghamorra

                                    When it comes to a ban wave my thoughts are they type an algorithm into the computer and anyone who falls in after the "=" gets a ban. There's a chance that this algorithm was flawed and when implemented it lumped a bunch of people into the post = resulting in a wrongful ban.

                                     

                                    Or, these people are just lying to start some kind of war.

                                     

                                    Nevertheless I find that 2 wrongful bans out of the millions they have issued don't result in a terribly flawed system. Certainly they need to make sure they take steps to insure this doesn't happen again, but Activision and Co are swinging a mighty high batting average.

                                    • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                      tracy

                                      Good to see a lot of valid points/comments being posted, totally agree that they should do an overhaul with the way things like this are dealt with, it wouldn't cause any major issues to implement better communications and inform people of reasons why, way too many people came to this forum looking for answers that nobody could really give, only point them in a general direction to get help.

                                      Hopefully if it was an error that occurred, the relevant parties will hold their hands up and apologise for all the chaos they caused, but I highly doubt that will happen.

                                      • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                        matuzz

                                        Yes if the system is faulty bans can't be taken for granted.

                                        • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                          IrateTraits

                                          I would have to disagree, while i did & still do see a major problem with the ban system. I don't think this "error" will warrant any change. The ban's legal doc. seems to cover "hackers" pretty well, I think the major fail here is just in the customer service. To use a useless medifor, it would be like being handed a burger at mcdonalds then after a bite, having it taken an the counter staff reusing to explain why they took it, but tell u, u probably stole it??

                                           

                                          I hope changes come but no i don't think they will. In the end, if there's enough of these "lifted" banners then they'll prolly get a dlc for free a simple sorry and we'll all wait for the next un-due "ban-hammer"

                                            • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                              maccabi

                                              I would have to disagree the handling of the things is appalling and a cange in procedures needs to happen if for no other reason than its poor customer service and ultimately will cost the franchise customers and support.

                                                • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                                  tracy

                                                  As you and a few others have commented, it would be good to see them at least attempt to do what XBL do, those who plead innocence are openly told exactly what they did wrong to receive their ban - I think many would even settle for being sent a message or e-mail detailing what they did wrong.

                                                    • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                                      IrateTraits

                                                      its almost a MUST! in what world can service just be cut without explaining?? its as tho they assume all players are capable of hacking modding?? they should realize, older players mentally disabled etc etc. also let u kno if it is on there end & how safe our information is. I called PSN yesterday to verify that it was safe to game online, & even they had few answers besides the usual corporate charbale.

                                                    • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                                      IrateTraits

                                                      yes for sure on the csr end! but as far as ban procedure, even tho this error did make it seem flawed i felt its just the volume of complaints that exposed the harshness of the process. most of these guys were just insta-pissed and rather then direct them to appropriate csr's they send them to a community forum, where they became white noise in amongst there own complaints. i think thats also why its still not clear who is being unbanned & why?? r cheaters being unbanned? & how long will the unbanning process take?? just a note my friend that did get banned, i posted his info in the list of banned peeps his got lifted? was it that list or just someone reviewing these bans case by case??

                                                  • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                                    FalconR6

                                                    As a number above have stated it is the communication that needs a buffing. Not just for those who have been banned, but also for the community at large. A more transparent system leads to confidence.

                                                     

                                                    I made this "idea" a while ago: http://community.activision.com/ideas/3217

                                                    Part of the idea was to make an information video on the reporting system. I understand reservations of some, as we should never see too much behind the curtain. However, I believe that an appropriate amount of information can be given without exposing trade secrets. To give examples I am including two videos from a couple of years back. At the PAX EAST conference Microsoft delivered a presentation on how the reporting system worked. It's level of information satisfies customers, however I'm sure that a suite of "banning" mechanisms where left alone. Obviously you never want to give information that can help hackers/modders. Note: I'm sure practices have upgraded/changed at MS since 2011.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                                      FalconR6

                                                      Well, IW admits to making a boo boo. Yet it is only made via twitter,, yep because everyone has twitter.

                                                      Would it not be nice for someone of note to duck into the Support Section of Ghosts HQ and deliver the apology.

                                                      Then again --> Customer Support don't even visit anymore,,,, very much in the shadows.

                                                      Fend for yourselves boys and girls.

                                                       

                                                      The following was tweeted by IW an hour ago 

                                                       

                                                      Infinity Ward @InfinityWard 57m

                                                      We understand some players were incorrectly banned over the weekend and we have since corrected the issue. Try playing again now

                                                        • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                                          maccabi

                                                          i was just coming on to post this exact same thing..

                                                           

                                                          The fact IW have now come clean , shows the system is NOT infallible,

                                                           

                                                          time to rethink some policies regarding bans methinks

                                                          • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                                            Izjar11

                                                            FalconR6 wrote:

                                                             

                                                            Well, IW admits to making a boo boo. Yet it is only made via twitter,, yep because everyone has twitter.

                                                            Would it not be nice for someone of note to duck into the Support Section of Ghosts HQ and deliver the apology.

                                                            Then again --> Customer Support don't even visit anymore,,,, very much in the shadows.

                                                            Fend for yourselves boys and girls.

                                                             

                                                            The following was tweeted by IW an hour ago

                                                             

                                                            Infinity Ward @InfinityWard 57m

                                                            We understand some players were incorrectly banned over the weekend and we have since corrected the issue. Try playing again now

                                                            I saw this as well early today,

                                                             

                                                            Clearly everyone who thinks they were wrongly banned can (rightly) request to be review:

                                                             

                                                            There "security" is now officially unreliable and unpredictable, way to go IW! Nice job.

                                                              • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                                                FalconR6

                                                                Good damage control would be trying to spin a reason for the mistake that leaves confidence in system.

                                                                 

                                                                If there is a change, which I hope to allow reviews, then they need to come up with a streamlined system. The fact that the past few days the Support Section has seen nothing but "Why am I banned" threads is a terrible look to have. What is even worse is that not one of the threads was responded to by a higher power. Further highlighting the pushing back of CS as a failure.  We all called for CS to be buffed within the forum, we have got a nerf.

                                                                  • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                                                    maccabi

                                                                    FalconR6 wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    Good damage control would be trying to spin a reason for the mistake that leaves confidence in system.

                                                                     

                                                                    If there is a change, which I hope to allow reviews, then they need to come up with a streamlined system. The fact that the past few days the Support Section has seen nothing but "Why am I banned" threads is a terrible look to have. What is even worse is that not one of the threads was responded to by a higher power. Further highlighting the pushing back of CS as a failure.  We all called for CS to be buffed within the forum, we have got a nerf.

                                                                    well at the height of the complaints Atviassist went completely silent on twitter, and even  after when it was obvious there was an error made, they were still replying to people on twitter with the stock all bans are final and investigated blah blah blah here's a link to an article which will send you to the forums.

                                                                     

                                                                    The poor mods were stuck here following the rules of the forums,  of locking and deleting ban threads which further compounded the issue and frustrations of people. all in all a stella weekend of utter fail by support (again)

                                                                      • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                                                        FalconR6

                                                                        Hear no evil, See no evil, Speak no evil

                                                                        Stormtroopers dealing with Evil

                                                                         

                                                                        Edit - should add, I very much feel for our mods in such situations. Taking unwarranted heat.

                                                                        • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                                                          Izjar11

                                                                          Yup, it was a bad weekend for them....

                                                                            • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                                                              gambit1969

                                                                              I did feel sorry for them because everything that was going on was totally outside their sphere of control, they did seem to remain pretty silent, i only saw one post from Fox and one from Jeepchick

                                                                                • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                                                                  maccabi

                                                                                  Well support added a new article

                                                                                  Activision Support

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Stating the obvious here but "we apologize for the inconvenience"is far short of "sorry we gave you appalling customer service and out rightly accused and implied by our handling of your complaints that you were all cheats and sent you round in circles"

                                                                                   

                                                                                  you know if it was me i'd be sitting in a meeting room now thinking of how to repair the complete lack of trust the community now has in the system and making sure anything "officially" said was vetted for taking the preverbial

                                                                                    • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                                                                      gambit1969

                                                                                      They do seem to treat the community like school kids at times, "sit down,shut up and listen because we know exactly what we are doing"..

                                                                                      I feel they have done the same about the connection issues people seem to have, it just seems to be a subject that they overlook

                                                                                      • Re: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
                                                                                        FalconR6

                                                                                        Hhmm, an inconvenience. Hope there wasn't any peeps who created new accounts thinking they were fubard and had no other choice.

                                                                                        I might have thought that as well as reinstating accounts, maybe a sorry gift might have been a good way to go. Dub XP for a certain time period. Or a couple of personalization pack redeem codes --> if they already have them they can pass on to a friend. I don't know what - but something better than limp handshake.

                                                                                         

                                                                                        Any for the love of God why is that link hidden in Atvi Knowledge bank.  On the forum boards please for starters !!!