25 Replies Latest reply: Apr 16, 2014 1:16 PM by nuttin2say RSS

    What happened to the old feeling?

    xMrxNCx

      Gaming used to be, not only a competitive style of fun, but a genuine place where people could go to find the latest stories, achievements, videos, conspiracies, custom modes, updates, and friendly involvement. Granted the video game atmosphere would not be complete without the trash talk, 1v1s, clan wars, machinimas, and a thousand other micro-experiences.

       

      But lately I have begun to see a decline in the diverse feel to gaming. I respect those people who are looking for the serious experience and those who would rather be aloof from the communities created through pure virtual interaction. Yet the for me the draw of console and computer gaming alike was the wealth of story to every aspect of the environment. Even the matchmaking developed its own history of amazing moments and youtube sensations. It's truly impossible to describe every feeling in a single game.

       

      This is a Call of Duty forum but one example I must use is Halo 4. For those of you who have been on recently, you witness yourselves the total lack of commitment to the game these days. 20,000 people play on a good day. The only reason I say this here is because I thought Call of Duty would remain impervious to the disillusioned community of gamers. Was I wrong? My source is limited to Xbox 360 but the general vibe I get (even from PSN and Xbox 1 players) is that the major franchises of our time are leveling out with only feeble micro-transactions to support them.

       

      The vibe is truly sad and once again I ask this forum for their opinion why. Has the active gaming generation dried up and moved on with life? Are games now so shallow that no one can create cool conspiracies (the Zombie story and easter eggs for example)? Are people turning away from diverse fun and more toward MLG or at least serious gaming? Has the generic FPS lost steam to Steam, the growing industry? I don't know.

       

      Like I said before: My analysis is inadequate to describe my disappointment in the lack of depth and community in modern games like Ghosts. The forum is dominated by legit and some not so legit complaints but rarely actual community news of trends and achievements. Why? Because in between Black Ops I and Ghosts something was lost in game creation and participation. Something that effected Halo, Gears of War, Call of Duty, and other major names as well.

       

      As part of the world of virtual entertainment I want to know why.

       

      Fell free to totally discredit this question because I hope to god that the downturn in game experience is just my imagination...

        • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
          DivineHeadShot

          The COD gaming experience is just getting old. They are trying so hard to introduce new stuff every game, that they are ruining it. The days of straight up gun vs gun is pretty much over. They have put so much stuff into the game to try to balance out the noobs and vets. It just kind of waters down the game and doesn't really balance anything. It just makes you have to play a style you don't really want, just to combat others play style. It's not that fun. I can deal with campers, Thermal, quickscoopers, ect. But you have to enter every game wondering what play style you are going to have to use for that game. Still the best players and the hardest for me to do well against, are the guys with really good gun skills, but those guys are few and far between.

           

          I don't think gaming community has grown up and moved on. It's more that they are ready for something else. I'm hoping Destiny turns out to be a great game. It has elements that we really have never seen before. Eventually a great game will come along and kill off COD, just like COD did to Halo (It wasn't just COD that killed Halo, but still) and everyone will get excited, and the gaming experience will improve.

           

          True gamers will never put down their Xbox, PS or PC in favor of stupid mobile games on smart phones, Like a lot of developers are thinking. Most of us need a much more in depth experience than those type of games offer. That's one of the problems right now. A lot of devs have switched their focus to mobile and facebook games. The profits are higher, because the games cost next to nothing to develop and rake in millions in micro transactions.  The casual gamers can not support an industry for ever though. Also with the low cost to develop the mobile game marketplace is being over run by low level devs. The bigger studios will eventually be forced to go back to making high quality console and pc games. Mobile gaming is booming right now, and its hurting console game titles, but it won't last. There are just too many studios making crappy mobile games.

           

          So it's not really one or two things changing the gaming scene, but a bunch of issues. Eventually thought it will stabilize, It may not be the gaming community from 5 years ago, but it will still be good and fun. Trust me I've been gaming since the 80s, rocking my Nintendo, I've seen things change drastically dozens and dozens of times. It always corrects itself and comes out stronger in the end..

          • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
            myevo8you

            There are a number of factors which have led to the decline of players on most "popular" online games.

             

            1. YOUTUBE - If you have been playing for a while, around the time MW2 came out youtube started to become a popular way for people to show what they did on a videogame. The quickscopers, griefers, camping for nukes, etc. grew 1000000x after youtube caught steam and younger players were trying to do what they saw in these videos

             

            2. DEVELOPERS - Started to listen to the small minority of players (mostly competitive gamers) and implementing ideas/rules which they placed in their games for the casual players to deal with. For example in BO2 in league play they started banning weapons, perks, attachments, etc. to coincide with what the "competitive scene" was doing. While I have ZERO problem with them only allowing certain things in that environment, they should have NEVER brought those to the mass public.

             

            3. QUALITY OF THE GAMES - The two best COD games in my opinion are COD4 and BO1. These were the most well rounded and balanced games we have seen. World at war and BO2 were good also, butnot great. MW2 was hurt by the fallout of IW and Activision and lost all post release support and was ruined by hackers/cheaters/modders/glitchers. MW3 was so bad with it's lag compensation that I literally could not play until the tail end when they released the last major update when they added HC Face off 3v3, couple that with poorly designed maps, drab colors, and overall crappy gameplay it was the worst in the series until Ghosts came out. Ghosts....UGH. The whole game is just AWFUL, and judging by the 300,000-400,000 players across ALL SIX PLATFORMS, the majority agree.

              • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                AntiGov

                myevo8you wrote:

                 

                 

                 

                2. DEVELOPERS - Started to listen to the small minority of players (mostly competitive gamers) and implementing ideas/rules which they placed in their games for the casual players to deal with. For example in BO2 in league play they started banning weapons, perks, attachments, etc. to coincide with what the "competitive scene" was doing. While I have ZERO problem with them only allowing certain things in that environment, they should have NEVER brought those to the mass public.

                 

                 

                Why are these forums full of people that blame "competitive gamers" for everything when it's the "dumbing" down of video games that's the issue?

                 

                I feel like a broken record, CoD was once a far more competitive game, not Halo competitive but yea, and since the creation of CoD 4 it's all went downhill. The focus went from gameplay to player investment, something casuals have grown to love. Due to the ever growing population of the thumbless zombies the game has been custom tailored to suit their every need. Developers have done everything they can to dry the tears of the casuals as they're the majority now. Rather than invent a newer version of virtual chess each year they just spoon feed the thumbless zombie horde with gimmicks and "unlocks".

                 

                Halo is a perfect example of how the thumbless zombie horde killed the franchise. Compare Halo 3 to reach, look at the direction Bungie took the franchise to dry the tears of the casuals. Removed the team based ranking system and put a system in place that only focused on the individual, which failed miserably I must add. Added "perks" to further offset any type of "balance". They also put a huge emphasis on player investment and made stats hidden, all of which was to tone down the competitive nature of the Quake style gameplay that was Halo. Halo was no longer about playing as team, it was all about about the individual.

                 

                Call of Duty is suffering because of casuals needing constant feeding from the tit. It's not the only franchise suffering right now, the zombie horde has nearly changed the entire industry. When is the last time you ran out lives and had to start over in a single player game? The gaming industry is lacking innovation and the casuals are to blame.

                  • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                    myevo8you

                    AntiGov wrote:

                     

                    myevo8you wrote:

                     

                     

                     

                    2. DEVELOPERS - Started to listen to the small minority of players (mostly competitive gamers) and implementing ideas/rules which they placed in their games for the casual players to deal with. For example in BO2 in league play they started banning weapons, perks, attachments, etc. to coincide with what the "competitive scene" was doing. While I have ZERO problem with them only allowing certain things in that environment, they should have NEVER brought those to the mass public.

                     

                     

                    Why are these forums full of people that blame "competitive gamers" for everything when it's the "dumbing" down of video games that's the issue?

                     

                    I feel like a broken record, CoD was once a far more competitive game, not Halo competitive but yea, and since the creation of CoD 4 it's all went downhill. The focus went from gameplay to player investment, something casuals have grown to love. Due to the ever growing population of the thumbless zombies the game has been custom tailored to suit their every need. Developers have done everything they can to dry the tears of the casuals as they're the majority now. Rather than invent a newer version of virtual chess each year they just spoon feed the thumbless zombie horde with gimmicks and "unlocks".

                     

                    Halo is a perfect example of how the thumbless zombie horde killed the franchise. Compare Halo 3 to reach, look at the direction Bungie took the franchise to dry the tears of the casuals. Removed the team based ranking system and put a system in place that only focused on the individual, which failed miserably I must add. Added "perks" to further offset any type of "balance". They also put a huge emphasis on player investment and made stats hidden, all of which was to tone down the competitive nature of the Quake style gameplay that was Halo. Halo was no longer about playing as team, it was all about about the individual.

                     

                    Call of Duty is suffering because of casuals needing constant feeding from the tit. It's not the only franchise suffering right now, the zombie horde has nearly changed the entire industry. When is the last time you ran out lives and had to start over in a single player game? The gaming industry is lacking innovation and the casuals are to blame.

                    COD4 is when COD got it's main following. The games before that were niche games and were not played that heavily due to lack of it being on a readily accessible console, and the internet gaming thing was just getting it's feet in the door with the mainstream.

                     

                    As for your rant about "casual gamers" they make up the VAST MAJORITY of the people who play the game. I would EASILY say that 90%+ of the gamers who play COD are casual gamers. As for what happened in Halo, WHO CARES. I am talking about COD, and what has happened to it. Player investment, as you call it, are what video games are about. The average player wants to go play a few matches, do well, and have fun. Yes, the majority of modes are team based, BUT what you are suggesting is that people who play COD need to be real life friends, have meetings, practice with each other while in each others company, etc. Now while some MLG gamers do this, that represents LESS THAN 1% of the people who play COD. Having rules based off of LESS THAN 1% of players is not only idiotic, but not necessary for a franchise to survive.

                     

                    If you go back and look at what the majority of complaints are about you will see most of them are out of the players control. Lag compensation, Spawns, map size, how certain things work with/against others. Now some things are totally stupid to complain about as the whole "this gun kills faster than this gun derp derp derp" or "this perk shouldn't do this derp derp derp" are stupid, and are whiny players not being able to adapt.

                     

                    Now here is where you totally fall flat on your face

                     

                    "Why are these forums full of people that blame "competitive gamers" for everything when it's the "dumbing" down of video games that's the issue?"

                     

                    The dumbing down of games comes from the rule set implemented by "competitive gamers" because they want the game to play a certain way. How many items were banned from MLG and gamebattles in the last 3 titles?

                     

                    Here is a list from Black Ops 2

                     

                    • Banned Primary Weapons
                      • FAL OSW
                      • Peacekeeper

                    • Banned Secondary Weapons

                      • SMAW

                      • RPG

                      • Kap-40

                    • Banned Lethals

                      • C4
                      • Claymore
                      • Bouncing Betty
                    • Banned Tacticals

                      • Shock Charge
                      • Tactical Insertion
                    • Banned Attachments

                      • Grenade Launcher
                      • Akimbos
                    • Banned Perks

                      • Hardline

                      • Ghost

                    • Banned Scorestreaks

                      • UAV

                      • Care Package

                      • Counter UAV

                      • Hunter Killer Drone

                      • Guardian

                      • Orbital VSAT

                    • Here is the list from MW3
                    • Banned Weapons

                      • All Launchers

                      • All Shotguns

                      • Riot Shield

                    • Banned Lethals

                      • Bouncing Betty

                      • Claymore

                      • C4

                    • Banned Tacticals

                      • Scrambler

                      • Trophy System

                      • Tactical Insertion

                      • Portable Radar

                    • Banned Attachments

                      • Heartbeat Sensor

                      • Grenade Launcher

                      • Shotgun

                      • Akimbo

                      • Rapid Fire

                    • Banned Proficiencies

                      • Attachments (Double Attachments are not Allowed)

                    • Banned Perks

                      • Blast Shield

                      • Overkill

                      • Recon

                      • Sitrep

                    And the current list from Ghosts

                     

                    • Restricted Killstreaks

                    All Assault

                    All Support

                    Specialist (All Restricted Perks, See Below)

                    • Restricted Primary Weapons

                    MSBS Assault Rifle

                    All Marksman Rifles

                    Riot Shield

                    • Restricted Secondary Weapons

                    All Launchers

                     

                    • Restricted Attachments

                    Grenade Launcher

                    Akimbo

                    Rapid Fire

                    Select Fire

                     

                    • Restricted Lethals

                    I.E.D.

                    C4

                    Canister Bomb

                     

                    • Restricted Tacticals

                    9-Bang

                    Motion Sensor

                    Thermobaric

                     

                    • Restricted Perks

                    Recon

                    Amplify

                    Gambler

                    Ping

                    Deadeye

                    Stalker


                    Now if limiting the game to about what 50% is available isn't "dumbing down" the game, then PLEASE enlighten me.

                      • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                        AntiGov

                        CoD 4 was the answer to all the casuals crying about needing more to play for than just good gameplay, I witnessed many tear soaked threads about it. Something else that was popular then was crying about "balance", as in how they felt powerless against people who where better than them. I believe that's what sparked the creation of "perks". The constant nipple feeding of the casuals is why CoD is in the state it's in. Nowadays after launch, even with DLC, titles are dropping online populations rather quickly. Seems like it's as fast as... Oh look a butterfly...

                         

                        I despise MLG, yet everyone always refers to them when replying to me. Competitive gameplay =/= competitive gaming, two completely different things.

                         

                        Why is it so hard for people to see all the gimmicks? Why do people need a constant pat on the back for just playing the damn game? I find it rather funny that you listed the stuff MLG won't allow, it's a rather comprehensive list of gimmicks. Many of the gimmicks listed were forged by the tears of the thumbless zombies, things added to make them feel "equal". Yet you view removing them as "dumbing" down the game, I find that ironic. How is removing the gimmicks that attempt to make every soccer mom of a gamer equal to players better than them "dumbing" down the game? Removing the elements that restrict competitive gameplay, as in CoD 2 like, makes for a far more team based game. It makes encounters more "balanced" and rewards teamwork. What we have now are perks/gimmicks thrown into the mix to "balance" out good players and bad players, putting them on more equal ground. Hopefully you feel enlightened, I believe I explained that fairly well. I could elaborate further if you wish.

                         

                        You also seemed to speak like teamwork required countless hours to accomplish. It might be for the thumbless zombies that need all the gimmicks that negate teamwork but it's second nature to many.

                         

                         

                         

                        I didn't think you would touch base on my single player comment, can't really debate that one now can you.

                          • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                            myevo8you

                            AntiGov wrote:

                             

                             

                             

                             

                             

                            I find it rather funny that you listed the stuff MLG won't allow, it's a rather comprehensive list of gimmicks. Many of the gimmicks listed were forged by the tears of the thumbless zombies, things added to make them feel "equal". Yet you view removing them as "dumbing" down the game, I find that ironic.

                             

                             

                             

                             

                             

                            I didn't think you would touch base on my single player comment, can't really debate that one now can you.

                            I condensed down your thoughts to the points which I will give you answers to.

                             

                            You say they take out "gimmicks". So PLEASE tell me when a GUN, WHICH SHOOTS BULLETS, IS A GIMMICK IN A FIRST PERSON SHOOTER GAME. Key word being SHOOTER. What it boils down to are the "competitive gamers" want the game to run a certain way 100% of the time because they are the ones that CANNOT ADAPT. These are usually the players who rush wildly with sleight of hand, marathon, ready up, etc. and REFUSE to wear a perk like Blast Shield or use Sit Rep and whine and complain when they get blown up by an IED or hit with a tube. Instead of making a class to combat this, they come to the forums and whine "NERF IEDS I KEEP GETTING BLOWN UP" or "YOU'RE A SCRUB IF YOU USE TUBES".

                             

                            Now for your single player argument. The reason the games are like this now is because back in the days of early games where most were side scrolling platform jumpers, the levels were fairly simple, didn't require a lot of time to get through, were linear paths, and even then there were password saves (which would start you back at the beginning of a level) when you ran out of lives, and the way games are designed it just wouldn't be practical. Imagine playing a game like Borderlands where if you died once, you lost everything. It wouldn't go over really well as a player could literally play for HUNDREDS OF HOURS and never experience the same thing twice. Same goes for games like Skyrim (or any Elder Scrolls game).

                              • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                AntiGov

                                myevo8you wrote:

                                 

                                AntiGov wrote:

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                I find it rather funny that you listed the stuff MLG won't allow, it's a rather comprehensive list of gimmicks. Many of the gimmicks listed were forged by the tears of the thumbless zombies, things added to make them feel "equal". Yet you view removing them as "dumbing" down the game, I find that ironic.

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                I didn't think you would touch base on my single player comment, can't really debate that one now can you.

                                I condensed down your thoughts to the points which I will give you answers to.

                                 

                                You say they take out "gimmicks". So PLEASE tell me when a GUN, WHICH SHOOTS BULLETS, IS A GIMMICK IN A FIRST PERSON SHOOTER GAME. Key word being SHOOTER. What it boils down to are the "competitive gamers" want the game to run a certain way 100% of the time because they are the ones that CANNOT ADAPT. These are usually the players who rush wildly with sleight of hand, marathon, ready up, etc. and REFUSE to wear a perk like Blast Shield or use Sit Rep and whine and complain when they get blown up by an IED or hit with a tube. Instead of making a class to combat this, they come to the forums and whine "NERF IEDS I KEEP GETTING BLOWN UP" or "YOU'RE A SCRUB IF YOU USE TUBES".

                                 

                                Now for your single player argument. The reason the games are like this now is because back in the days of early games where most were side scrolling platform jumpers, the levels were fairly simple, didn't require a lot of time to get through, were linear paths, and even then there were password saves (which would start you back at the beginning of a level) when you ran out of lives, and the way games are designed it just wouldn't be practical. Imagine playing a game like Borderlands where if you died once, you lost everything. It wouldn't go over really well as a player could literally play for HUNDREDS OF HOURS and never experience the same thing twice. Same goes for games like Skyrim (or any Elder Scrolls game).

                                 

                                I really didn't think I'd have to point out the guns but seeing as how you're grasping at straws I guess I should have. Perks are gimmicks, guns are guns. Furthermore, MLG is just another leech. I can understand the removal of some weapons in a Quake style shooter, as they did in Halo but not CoD.

                                 

                                I find it amusing that you still claim "competitive gamers" can't adapt. You simply choose to ignore fact. How can you dispute the drastic changes from CoD 3 to CoD 4? Why do you ignore things such as Last Stand, Juggernaut, Dead Silence, Danger Close, Marathon,? Those things were added because people couldn't adapt, not the other way around. How many people played the Bare Bones playlist? I wonder why that was? They didn't kick and scream for nothing, they cannot play without the gimmicks.

                                 

                                As far as single player, you failed to even mention titles that allow you to skip sections of the game you fail to complete. I just played through Infamous Second Son, I didn't feel as though I accomplished anything as I watched the credits roll by. If I died I simply respawned and went right back at it with no penalty. Borderlands does punish players for every death. not enough but it's better than nothing. We should be punished for deaths and we should never be allowed to skip any section of the game. If I fancy a linear story being spoon fed to me I'd rather read a book or watch a movie. If I want to explore new gameplay mechanics I play a game.

                                  • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                    Satakyn

                                    MW3's Barebones playlist was the only thing I played, not because I couldn't compete with killstreaks, but because it was the playstyle that most reminded me of the time I spent many hours playing Quake 2, a game solely based on gun play and also a game that frowned upon spawn camping, though that was a time where you spawned in on spawn pads so everyone obviously knew where people were going to spawn, even noobs.

                                     

                                    I honestly like playing this game every which way, be it Core, Hardcore, or eSports/restricted rules. While I don't whine and moan about IEDs when I clearly don't use Blast Shield or Sitrep, I can understand why people are annoyed by them, but not so much to complain about it 24/7. It's part of the game, deal with it or go play your niche playlist. As much as I can do good in the Clan vs Clan playlists, I don't play them all the time because the killstreaks in Ghosts are fairly well balanced across all the killstreaks. In comparison, the reason I only played Barebones on MW3 was because I hated things like AC-130s and other obviously overpowered killstreaks that literally took the fun out of the game for me.

                                     

                                    But basically, I have to agree with those not complaining - if you can't adapt, then maybe you're playing the wrong game. Sure, I too hate having to switch from a class I have fun with to one I can win with because of how the other team is playing, but that just means I took the time to step up instead of casually having fun with, say, my run-n-gun ACOG sniper class, or my combat knife + C4 class. Instead, I realize I need to change tactics so I switch to my LSAT or runner classes in order to correctly combat things like MTAR runners and other such players in Ghosts. I can hold out for that one match where I'm facing different opponents to enjoy using my fun classes instead of my more competitive classes.

                                • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                  nuttin2say

                                  AntiGov, you've got some good, strong points, too.

                                   

                                  I agree that the level of gimmicks has gotten ridiculous. I do think, however, that at least some ways to bring variation into how a player moves about the map is necessary. Otherwise we go too far into the other direction, as well. If the game is strictly gun vs gun, then that's a dumbed-down game just as much as is a "balanced" game with 50 different perks. It isn't often that you find people that thought COD4 was a bad game. I can see your points but I can't completely agree with them.

                                   

                                  You suggest that when Halo went from a game that rewarded team construction and team play to a system that rewarded individual play, the game went downhill. You know, I've only done Halo online a couple of times and I flatly did not like it. Halo 2 was not a team oriented game in any way, IMO. It was quick scoping, Halo jumping nonsense. Talk about gimmicks? Halo defined gimmickry. Nonetheless, if we take your assertion as an accurate assessment and bring it over to COD, we see the exact opposite happening. Not until MW2 did COD become a game that rewarded team coordination in any significant way beyond simple wins. How many times do you remember hearing teammates ask, "How can I load out my streak rewards to support you scoring a nuke?" A lot. Everyone was doing it. Even if you were in lobbies with randoms, during the match you'd get into conversations with your fellow randoms about setting up, if not for a nuke, all the other streaks to bring a barrage onto the other team during the next match. And if someone was going to end up on the other team in the following match, you backed out, partied up, and found a new lobby of other randoms.

                                   

                                  So which was the actual culprit? The gimmicks? Or the rewards for team play? Well, what I've seen over the years is a game that has introduced gimmicks that helped the regular parties. MW2 was bad. So was BO1, MW3, and BO2. The absolute worst was BO2 - and it did not have orgasm inducing Nukes or MOABs! What it did have, though, was the ability for teams with merely half-assed skills to wrack up 100+ kill Domination matches. PTFO had never been screamed so loudly in these forum halls.

                                   

                                  I'm not going to get into why BO1 seems to have been the second most popular COD. Whether it was popular or not, it still rewarded party play. In fact, it introduced us to a world of super-gimmicks that made MW2 pale in comparison. I loved BO1, don't get me wrong. But it was still a gimmick-laden game that rewarded party play. That said, like I said, MW2 through BO2 not only became crazy with gimmicks, those gimmicks have tended to reward skill-lacking teams (not that there are no skilled teams, I'm just saying that you can take thumbless zombies, put them in a party and they will automatically perform better; give them rewards and you unleash a narcissistic monster that has no idea what "balance" really means).

                                    • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                      AntiGov

                                      Halo had a few gimmicks, but that was a Quake style shooter. I hope you're not considering shields and power ups as gimmicks. Halo didn't incorporate training wheels as CoD has had since CoD 4 until reach. Halo focused on gameplay and not rewarding individuals as CoD does. Halo required map control because of weapon/power up spawns, you also had to team shoot enemies. Halo 2 was a very team based game, IMO the most competitive shooter to ever grace a console. A single mistake by one player could cost you 10 kills, the amount of team work it took to play at a decent level was absurd.

                                       

                                      I'm going to assume your comment about killstreaks being team oriented was satirical. I know people would run Hardline UAVs for people going for Nukes but that's about it.

                                       

                                      CoD has spent far too long being the casual shooter it is. Ghosts was a step backward, not forward. The feeling of accomplishment has been gone for far to long, they need to make the game worth playing. Let the thumbless zombies play Titanfall or some other one off CoD wannabe shooter.

                                        • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                          nuttin2say

                                          Well, as I said, I only did Halo mp a couple of times. I can see how you might say map control was critical ... but the the maps felt more like huge open arenas with a few places to take cover. So was it map control or was it a matter of simply avoiding being the turkey? I don't want to take away from Halo. It was very popular and, as I keep saying, I only played mp a few times.

                                           

                                          As someone else said, though, different game. And different sub-genre, if we really want to get down to it. Halo, imo, is far more comparable to Battlefield than COD.

                                           

                                          For all of Halo's success, it still did not match the success of Call of Duty. The training wheels, as you describe them, have long been a contention in Call of Duty. If you remove them entirely, no doubt about it - the community shrinks. Somewhere you have to make a compromise, even though I'm probably as loathe to do so as you are. But we can go too far with training wheels, too. I think COD is there. The first tier "perks" of COD4 were not really perks. They were part of your weapon load out. Do you want RPGs or triple frags? Tier 2 was definitely a crutch with a choice between added weapon power (Stopping Power) or added health (Juggernaut). Tier 3, IMO, was more of an accent than a huge help. Even Steady Aim didn't help you in 100% of your engagements. Dead Silence did nothing more than help you get around the map - and had costs associated with it. Even if we concede training wheels existed in COD4, they were minimal and, if anything, merely brought more players to the table. I don't think COD4, in the big picture, hurt the concept of gun vs. gun play.

                                           

                                          If you want to look at volume of add-ons as the indicator of training wheels, then we may want to consider World at War. That was where we got a lot of new things placed into our load outs ... and, more distinctly, we got more load outs. Five more, to be exact. Even so, there was no big change in "perks." Are you considering vehicle "perks" training wheels? Not one of those items gave you some sort of overwhelming advantage. If anything, they promoted team play because that was the only place they really came in handy.

                                           

                                          The perk system, as it had been in COD4, was effectively unchanged. We still had a 3-5-7 streak reward system. We got a lot of add-ons, but nothing that took a player from a 0.75 player to a 1.5 player. In fact, if anything, WaW took the community from being 0.75 players to 0.50 players. The idea that more "crutches" dumbed down that game doesn't fit, either.

                                           

                                          However, when you get to MW2 we got some serious changes to the "crutches" themselves. In addition, Tier 1 became a full-blown perk. Now you could run an RPG and three perks instead of two perks and an RPG.

                                           

                                          I was not at all being satirical. Claiming that only Hardline achieved UAVs were used to enhance chances of a Nuke is facetious at best. I mean, for one thing, the origins of MW3s Support Class came straight out of MW2. Can't get the other team to hoard up in one place in order to start spawn killing with a CG or AC130? Have your teammate drop an Emergency Care Package drop. And how about that streak reward itself? What, you actually tried to hoard all four CPs for yourself? No. No one did that. And those that did were not using it as intended - the intent was clearly to give the entire team a boost in overcoming the other team.

                                           

                                          I'm not understanding how you can say that COD introduced crutches with COD4 then turn around and not be able to see that the training wheel concept not only got put on steroids in MW2, the training wheel concept benefited team/party play far more than anything else. The streak rewards clearly benefited the team that coordinated their efforts. In fact, it was so well rewarded that you could literally spawn trap a team anywhere on any map. That's a far cry difference from BO1 where spawn trapping was still possible, but you were pretty much restrained to trapping them in one of the original spawn points.

                                           

                                          I really don't see how you can separate the two. If you place training wheels into a game, by default that is an incentive toward team play. And that is especially true when you have a game that lets you customize streak rewards to every single CAC - and, on top of that, have a dozen and half rewards possible (and even more than that since MW3).

                                           

                                          You get rid of perks and streak rewards, you get rid of the necessity for team play. That may not be true for all games, I will grant you that. But even in the simpleton map environment of BO2, a lone wolf could make his way around the map without team support - even though he was a full-time red dot on the mini-map. But the lone wolf wasn't going to score a 100 kill streak against a well-organized team of mediocre players. On the other hand, you could take a well-organized team of idiots in BO2 and have a couple of them score 100+ kill streaks. Were teams doing that because of the training wheels? Or because of them being in a team?

                                           

                                          If it was because they were playing as a team, then you'd be seeing the same thing happen in Ghosts. It ain't happening. The training wheels that allowed players to use passive weapons does not exist to the same degree in Ghosts. Not even close.

                                           

                                          Amazingly enough, AntiGov, I think we're actually on the same page. We just have a slightly different reading than each other. I'll give you an example. You mentioned Hardline and UAVs. I've actually made similar arguments in the past. If you look back, how many UAVs were being called in during COD4 or WaW? Not many. That says a lot about the skill of the community. Once you start remembering back to Air Strikes and Attack Helos, man, there were not many guys that could call in a Helo every match. And there were very few that could call in several in a single match.

                                           

                                          Fast forward to MW2 and that is where you saw the rise of the 2.0 kdr. In fact, that's where, all of a sudden, KDR really became a big part of the COD vernacular. Why? What changed?

                                           

                                          Well, you hit the nail on the head - hardline caused that change. Meh, not Hardline on its own, but combined with more perks and streak rewards now available at 2-3-4, you've got guys that, in the past, could not score a 3 kill streak to save their lives suddenly scoring 4 to 5 kills without a second thought. Literally you double their performance ... yet, they have actually done nothing at all to earn the double amount of kills. Add to that more perks and easier to operate weapons in every class? You've got guys that, without the training wheels normally die twice before they score three kills suddenly able to score 7 or 8 kill streaks.

                                           

                                          And they actually think they are bringing skill to the game.

                                           

                                          What happens when you take those crutches away? Well, everyone knew FAR in advance the UAV was going away from Ghosts. Worse still, the SatCom doesn't even really exist unless, working with your TEAM, you plant two more down. Team play isn't rewarded in Ghosts? Pfffft. Yes, it is. crutches gone? Yes.

                                           

                                          Is it irony that both teams and crutches are gone? Or just mere coincidence? (I don't mean that either is totally absent, but there has been a serious reduction in both).

                                            • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                              AntiGov

                                              In a nutshell Halo was all about map control, knowing exactly when weapons/powerups spawn, team shooting, and controlling spawns. The powerups/power weapons promoted movement so other than the occasional crouching mauler/shotgun camping was nearly non existent. Halo can only be compared to weapon pick up style games such as Quake. CoD and Battlefield allow you to set a predetermined class and power weapons/power ups do not exist.

                                               

                                              One way you could compare the two though would be the kill streaks vs power weapons/power ups. Killstreaks are earned by individual stats, kills, caps, and tags. Power weapons/Power ups are earned by map control, for if you control the areas in which they spawn and know when they spawn you get them. That requires teamwork and you're rewarded by having an OP weapon.  I think it would be very interesting if CoD made an experimental TDM playlist and attempted to use kill streaks as power weapons and perhaps juggernaut armor as a power up. Spawns would have to revert back to Black Ops 1 spawns for it to work properly but I think you would see far more actual team work.

                                               

                                              I tend to not play anything other than HC SnD, although I will visit other modes from time to time I don't do so very often. I can only speak for HC SnR, I think it's fairly team oriented. Ghosts has done a few good things, not many but I feel as the change from HC SnD to HC SnR was a good one. I will also admit that by do so they added training wheels to make the mode more accessible. I believe I would have truly despised Ghosts if I it would have been HC SnD due to all the gear campers are given and the poor map design.

                                               

                                              I never played WaW during it's prime, it's the only CoD I skipped. I played the beta and thought it sucked so I never bought it, I was very much into Halo at that time though. From what my friends say about it I didn't miss much.

                                                • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                                  nuttin2say

                                                  Basically what you're describing, AntiGov, is a game of spawn trapping. TBH, back in MW days, that was the best strategy to have when it came to trying to win. You know how the community responded to that? Take a look around the forums - they're still whining and crying! lol.

                                                   

                                                  Perks vs power ups vs streak rewards ... it's all artificial. Whoever got the nuke/moab first won. What's the difference?

                                                   

                                                  In any case, I appreciate your appreciation for Halo ... but if I wanted to play Halo, I would have been playing Halo all this time. It's a different game and a different sub-genre. You're focused upon the FPS aspect which is why I think a lot of people thought Titanfall was going to affect COD. Titanfall did not do so for a glaringly obvious reason - it is not in the same military-based FPS segment. If anything, TItanfall competes with Halo, diving deep into science fiction. It's like this, while the movies Battlefield: Los Angeles and Star Wars: Return of the Jedi seemingly fall into the same genre of science fiction action, they are different. Battlefield: LA is something like "modern science fiction action" whereas Star Wars: Return is something more like "science fiction fantasy." The difference between Halo and Call of Duty is yet broader than that. You're looking at science fiction fantasy versus advanced military action (which is a shift from the original genre of COD). You're just not going to get everyone to interchange with both categories.

                                                   

                                                  Genre is not even the larger issue, though. All that genre does is open the lake of possibilities into a sea of possibilities. As it is, we've long had a "not plausible" presence in forum discussions. For example, "It is not plausible for someone to jump and 360 spin with a 50 cal sniper rifle - and score a headshot." I think one could argue that, as COD has drifted more and more into "future weaponry" games, the community has been more accepting of the "implausible." Once we get into the implausible, then we get into power ups and streak rewards that are more and more laughable. Guess what? That is exactly where the drift has taken us with Michael Meyers and Predator now showing up on the screen.

                                                   

                                                  The question as to whether or not this has been a successful migration for COD, though, is not so easily answered. Are sales ticking upward as Ghosts becomes more distant from a World War II homage? I think the answer is obvious - this is not what the Call of Duty consumer is looking for.

                                                   

                                                  Power ups will not help Call of Duty. I think the community's increasing dismay with the perks as well as an increasing dismay with streak rewards supports what I'm saying. We're moving away from a relatively plausible, military based FPS into a fantasy sci fi game where complete and utter suspension of disbelief is required. Well, I'm sorry to upset folks (I'm a sci fi fan myself), but that's just not what the COD demographic is looking for, as a whole.

                                        • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                          faceless1233

                                          MLG and Gamebattles are meant to be professional they will always have a different rule set. Here is a ridiculous example, for casual's only the next the super bowl will be flag only or if for competitive only all gear will come with razor wired spikes. competitive sounds more enjoyable but in practice the brutality of one misstep is to severe for most. Yet too easy is just as bad that leaves you felling bored, unsatisfied and you don't get the chance to care about the game the exception is those few who pwn everything through some divine province so the sequel doesn't matter to those who would look forward to the next one and the casual couldn't care less most casuals are probably going something like this casual 1: call of duty ghosts isn't that a scary thing like RE. casual 2:oh i hope so that was a good movie. Casual 2 doesn't even care about either of the 2's past titles in fact he may not even know it exists. so thing is too much of either is bad and right now it's too casual.

                                            • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                              myevo8you

                                              faceless1233 wrote:

                                               

                                              MLG and Gamebattles are meant to be professional they will always have a different rule set. Here is a ridiculous example, for casual's only the next the super bowl will be flag only or if for competitive only all gear will come with razor wired spikes. competitive sounds more enjoyable but in practice the brutality of one misstep is to severe for most. Yet too easy is just as bad that leaves you felling bored, unsatisfied and you don't get the chance to care about the game the exception is those few who pwn everything through some divine province so the sequel doesn't matter to those who would look forward to the next one and the casual couldn't care less most casuals are probably going something like this casual 1: call of duty ghosts isn't that a scary thing like RE. casual 2:oh i hope so that was a good movie. Casual 2 doesn't even care about either of the 2's past titles in fact he may not even know it exists. so thing is too much of either is bad and right now it's too casual.

                                              The rule set is PERFECTLY FINE for their tournaments, and competitions, but my point was is when that spills over into the actual rules for regular online play, it's an issue.  This is what happened to league play in BO2, they used the ruleset and banned a lot of stuff for PUBLIC PLAY to satisfy the less than 1% of players who use those rules.

                                            • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                              nuttin2say

                                              myevo8you, as a nominee for post of the year, your's is better than mine!!!

                                               

                                              There's some sort of twisted - morbidly twisted, mind you - irony to MLG players complaining that causal gamers are the cause of dumbed-down games.

                                            • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                              AlteredVista

                                              I disagree with a lot of your points about Ghosts being less competitive than previous call of duty titles. As for Halo, I was a 47 in Halo 2 and 50 in Halo 3's MLG playlist (as well as others). I think I can speak upon Halo and I agree that series got worse. Cod is still right now the most successful shooter on the market and many of the problems it has are not due to the quality of the game. I do agree though that MLG removes far too much of the game. 4v4 for Halo was the staple, but for cod it's almost a whole different game.

                                          • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                            SirShiftyy

                                            I blame all of this on earning money. >>>>>(MOST)<<<<< video game developers are so focused on earning money and pleasing the players who can't adapt to change, that they start to forget about the fun and challenge that older games used to bring. I just think people are used to getting what they want, when they want it. Companies may only do some of these because they are pressured into doing it by the public, and the fact that people who aren't even old enough to play mature games make up a large wealth of video games.

                                            • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                              nicedrewishfela

                                              The biggest issue has become entitlement, on both sides of the coin.

                                               

                                              Activision has become lazy about the product, because it has become a consistent money maker for them. So they are letting things slide that may not have gotten by in earlier iterations of the game.

                                               

                                              On the Community side, nothing makes us happy any more. Everyone wants what they want, and could care less if it is what is best for the game. They could make a perfect game and there would be people complaining about something, it is just how this community has developed.  It is the downfall of every franchise out there, trying to make everyone happy instead of being innovative and doing what is best for the game.

                                                • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                                  PandasRpeople2

                                                  Isn't "what is best for the game," by definition, pretty much synonymous with "making as many players of the game as possible happy?"

                                                   

                                                  It's a little more nuanced than that, but not much.  Success of a gaming franchise depends on retaining current players, but also on bringing in new blood as attrition invariably thins out the playerbase.  So CoD has to try to find that balance where they provide something interesting for veterans but also accessible for newbs.  As a veteran myself (at least since BO1) I think they've done a good job.  As for the lower numbers of players on the current release, I can't account for it; but you can be sure that Activision's market research team is looking at all angles.  Maybe the strain of a two year development cycle for IW and Treyarch is starting to show.  Well, the fact that they've brought on Sledgehammer to be a third developer indicates that if this is part of the problem, it's being addressed.

                                                   

                                                  Thing is, I like franchises.  I'm a franchise guy; that's just me.  My video game playing is overwhelmingly devoted to CoD and Elder Scrolls titles; my board/card game playing is overwhelmingly devoted to Magic:the Gathering, which I've been going at for more than twenty years.  I don't know if CoD can match the longevity of a game like Magic, which benefits from the fact that each new batch of cards printed has perfect "backwards compatibility" with what's come before.  But I do know that if CoD goes down the tubes, I won't be one of those haters saying, "Ha, suck it Activision!"  I'll just be sad.

                                                • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                                  matuzz

                                                  This is more of an console community problem, I would say on PC the community aspect and support by developers is much more stronger than in console gaming. Also Call of Duty in general is on slide after it pretty much peaked during Black Ops and in fact it is already pretty much dead on PC.

                                                   

                                                  But maybe try a PC gaming, where modding community and indie games flourish and devs interact much more with the players.

                                                  • Re: What happened to the old feeling?

                                                    Halo 4 was a terrible game by Halo standards so there's a good reason why it died off quickly.

                                                    • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                                      nuttin2say

                                                      btw, Mr NC, I gave you five stars and a like for this thread. I don't know that I agree with everything you're saying, but somehow this has been one of the best threads I've seen in a long time where people can have a good, deep, honest discussion about Call of Duty philosophy.

                                                      • Re: What happened to the old feeling?
                                                        Noctis Everto

                                                        The game isnt bad. the community not knowing how to think a certain way is whats ruining it.

                                                         

                                                        Everyone sense of self is totally lost the second they die. Anyone who plays well and has fun is a no-life to those with a low kd/wl, because only losers put that time into a game (And theyre doing what exactly?)

                                                         

                                                        People dont want to wait. They want it NOW NOW NOW.

                                                         

                                                        Psychoanalysis has slowed down too, cause people just "wan the pill thatll make it all better" instead of sitting down, getting to know someone, along with yourself, and ACTUALLY realizing something.