10 Replies Latest reply: Jun 8, 2014 8:00 AM by oRLsx317o RSS

    Serious question...SC2010 vs MP7?

    oRLsx317o

      I know the MP7 isn't in Ghosts but you'll see how it fits in after reading this in full...

       

      Why is it that I can take an MP7 on to any map in MW3 and dominate, yet the SC2010 seems so average to me and most of the time I'm better off with either a Honey Badger or R5? Here are some basic stats that relate directly to performance in a gunfight. I won't be including rapid fire for the MP7 or kick/grip for either, as I wouldn't use them in a typical game (focus for MP7, extended mags for SC2010):

       

      MP7:

      Mag size: 40

      Damage: 35-20, 3-5 hits to kill

      RPM: 720rpm at 60fps

      3hk range (suppressed): 13m (10m)

      4hk range (suppressed): 17m (12m)

      ADS time: 0.2s

      Sprint out time: 0.3s

      Recoil: 45 up, 20 down, 25 left, 10 right, 1650 centerspeed (extremely low, virtually non-existant left right or down thanks to positive values, explains thin upwards line pattern)

       

      SC2010:

      Mag size: 45 w/ext mags

      Damage: 35-20, 3-5hk

      RPM: 720rpm at 60fps

      3hk range (suppressed): 24m (18m)

      4hk range (suppressed): 36m (27m)

      ADS time: 0.3s

      Sprint out time: 0.3s

      Recoil: 40 up, -20 down, 45 left, -45 right, 1400 centerspeed (very low, recoil pattern is that of a small rectangle around the original point of aim, has a minus down value so it actually recoils down slightly unlike the MP7, aiding the slightly worse centerspeed)

       

      Now here are my typical classes for each weapon:

       

      MP7 + suppressor and focus proficiency

      MP9 + suppressor

      Concussion

      Frag

      Sleight of hand or scavenger

      Assassin or hardline

      Dead silence

       

      SC2010 + suppressor and extended mags

      No secondary or equipment

      Ready up

      Stalker

      Quickdraw

      Dead silence

      Focus

       

      As I said before I don't use rapid fire on the MP7 so the rate of fire is virtually the same most of the time on console, and I don't use kick or grip because they're not needed. These classes show a lot of similarities; I run a suppressor on both, and I have extended mags on the SC to bring my ammo levels up more in line with the MP7. I like focus on MW3 and I need it on Ghosts so it's on both classes; as is dead silence. I use the MP7 much like an assault rifle as it's great on all maps, so I don't run steady aim pro (to reduce sprint out time) as there are other perks I like to unlock first, and I use assassin (no brainer) or hardline (with specialist) so I don't use quickdraw. The MP7 has "mini stalker" already, being an SMG, so that's not needed because I can strafe fast enough. But here's where my confusion starts...

       

      The SC2010 class uses dead silence and focus too as mentioned above, and quickdraw to bring ADS time to 0.2s, the same as the MP7. I then use stalker to give me faster strafing, and this is actually 10% faster strafing than you get with SMGs so it's more effective in that area than the MP7. Then I use ready up with my last perk point, which takes my sprint out time from 0.3s to 0.18s - BETTER than the MP7 that isn't combined with steady aim pro (unless I get my specialist bonus).

       

      So in summary, they both have the same damage, ADS time (with quickdraw on my SC class) and similarly controllable recoil, while the SC has better range, a better recoil pattern (more controllable for me, at range anyway), better sprint out time (better for rushing), faster strafing (stalker) and more ammo (extended mags). The only advantages the MP7 has over the SC are better hipfire (I nearly always ADS) and faster movement speed (irrelevant in gunfights).

       

      I'm a better Ghosts player than I am an MW3 player overall, and my Xbox 360 (what I play MW3 on) controller's right stick is drifting and making aiming fairly difficult, yet despite the SC being better than the MP7 in most areas I always do well with an MP7, whereas the SC is rather underwhelming and I always feel like I could have done better with something else.

       

      As a result the MP7 class listed above is my go-to class for MW3, whereas my SC one isn't for Ghosts. Does anyone here have any thoughts on this? Because I'm obviously missing something

        • Re: Serious question...SC2010 vs MP7?
          gramthenOOb

          I think the factor you are overlooking is that these weapons are on two differing games. Because of this, the context in which they are used is different; Maps, other players' loadouts, and general game mechanics differ slightly. Even if the stats ad you have presented them seem to favor the SC2010 as a better weapon, the situational use of this weapon is different than the use for the MP7. Therefore, even if you view the SC2010 as a statistically better weapon, the MP7 may just be better suited to be used in the situations it is faced with.

            • Re: Serious question...SC2010 vs MP7?
              oRLsx317o

              Good point, but this is why I presented the info in the way I did, showing that my classes are virtually identical (as much as that's possible), but also because I use them in the same fairly aggressive way.

               

              The SC is superior up close in my class compared to an MP7 without quickdraw, steady aim pro or rapid fire, and yet up close with the SC it seems far less effective . It also has far better range (almost double the 3hk range, over double the 4hk range) yet the MP7 seems to kill faster at range despite MW3's worse hit detection, and slightly less controllable recoil at range (trying to pull my 360's broken right stick down slightly to compensate for the purely vertical kick is tough lol).

               

              Perhaps the part where I said the SC2010 feels underwhelming to me was misleading; I don't mean I do particularly bad with it - in fact I probably get higher scoring games with it than the MP7 overall - but it's little things like how the SC feels like a hitmarker machine to me versus the MP7, despite having far better range and the same damage lol :/

               

              I guess I'm trying to work out why I use the MP7 class so much in MW3 and the SC one in Ghosts so little now, despite me actually liking more weapons from MW3. I use the MP7, ACR, FAD, SCAR, MK14, PP90, PM9 and L86 a lot, whereas for Ghosts I'll stick to the R5, Honey Badger, FAD and Ripper for all maps, and then only sometimes the SC.

               

              Maybe it's something silly like my not so awesome connection being shown up by Ghosts' superior hit detection (I'm dying despite getting several hit markers sometimes, so I seem way behind), whereas MW3's was more forgiving and so the MP7 seems to perform better for me? Thanks for your thoughts

            • Re: Serious question...SC2010 vs MP7?
              C_CHRIS11

              First of all above analysis is great and shows that you are someone who knows his object very well.

              You have shown that two different guns, different class (smg, ar), different stats and most important from two different games can become equal with the right use of perks and attachments. Except of the range of course.

              Well I am not as good as you are but I think that you are not missing anything.

              Its only the fact that its two different games with completely different game play style.

              Ghost maps are big and as we have seen requires a new specific way to play to do well. Something that some people find it difficult to adapt.

              Another think is that MP7 is an smg made for run and gun play style in a game that favored this type of playing. The SC is an AR that is made f or a game that favors ARs and more cautious play in a game with big maps and long lines of sight. 

              And finally maybe your play style is more of a run & gun and this is why the MP7 is more your go-to class.

                • Re: Serious question...SC2010 vs MP7?
                  oRLsx317o

                  Haha thanks I just typed out the stats I already knew and researched the other important ones, as I really wanted to show my point without coming across as an idiot that doesn't consider every relevant factor

                   

                  You're absolutely right; hence my classes to make them on par with each other in every way, because as standard the MP7 is much better up close, being an SMG. The only difference is that the SC actually suits an aggressive style more thanks to its sprint out and strafing advantages in my class (as well as superior range for longer distances), yet the MP7 always seems more consistent at ALL ranges for me

                   

                  You're right; my play style is definitely more run and gun than anything (not exactly headless chicken though, more smart-aggressive, but aggressive nonetheless) and this is how I've conjured up the above SC class...it should be more rewarding in all situations - particularly up close - than my above MP7 class.

                   

                  Idk, maybe there are forces at work here that I couldn't possibly comprehend I think I'll stick to my SC class today when I load up Ghosts and rack up some more hours with it, see if I can pinpoint what the problem is. Thanks for your input!

                • Re: Serious question...SC2010 vs MP7?
                  ghamorra

                  I did a thread similar to this earlier in the year comparing how weapons of MW3 seem to translate perfectly into Ghosts. However, someone brought up a good point in that discussion. There's only so many ways to balance a gun to keep it from being OP. You only have so many stats to work with and if you look throughout all Call of Duty games you're going to find weapons that are very similar to each simply because there's only so much tweaking you can do to keep the weapons balanced.

                    • Re: Serious question...SC2010 vs MP7?
                      oRLsx317o

                      Oh really? I'll have to hunt that down...I'm fairly new here   I have encountered your Lag Comp explanation thread before though. More people need to read that; all I ever see are people blaming their being bad on something they don't understand lmao

                       

                      Yeah I totally agree. They have to find the formula that works at the game's core, and then simply make superficial changes over time...if it's not broken don't fix it!

                       

                      This is why I'm so confused though. Despite the SC2010 and MP7 being so different to start with, I've created these classes to make them virtually identical in terms of capabilities in all situations, and yet the performance doesn't seem anywhere near similar...despite the SC being superior at close to mid range most of the time. I mean with quickdraw the ADS times are the same and with ready up the SC can fire 40% faster than the MP7 (an SMG) off the sprint!

                        • Re: Serious question...SC2010 vs MP7?
                          ghamorra

                          Did you get your info from symthic? If so look at where the max damage ends where minimum damage begins. Run a rise over run calculation to come up with the slope. That's a key stat for consistency and what separates many weapons of similar stats.

                            • Re: Serious question...SC2010 vs MP7?
                              oRLsx317o

                              Nah, a lot of Symthic's info hasn't been updated (to factor in nerfs/buffs/new weapons etc), so I use a spreadsheet that someone (Marvel4) over at the Denkirson forums put together using info from the game files. There's no difference in info for the SC or MP7 between the two sites because neither weapons have been patched as far as I'm aware, but I prefer that as other weapons are always kept up to date.

                               

                              I simply check the number of units a weapon does a certain damage out to and divide by 40 for the range in metres, then either multiply by 1.2 for a muzzle brake or 0.75 for the suppressor.

                               

                              I've never really considered how far it drops off like that; only damage profiles and 3/4/5hk ranges. If I'm understanding what you mean by slope, would the FAD take the crown in that particular area for Ghosts' ARs? It only drops off from 34 damage to 25, and the drop off over range occurs very slowly (which is why a FAD with muzzle brake has its small 20m 3hk range increased to a very good 35m if you get just one deadeye hitmarker). The Ripper would be another example too, assuming I'm on the right lines...in AR mode anyway.

                                • Re: Serious question...SC2010 vs MP7?
                                  ghamorra

                                  I like using guns that are consistent. It helps me with my timing as I count hitmarkers in my head and then move on not waiting to process whether or not I go the kill. I think it's the R8 that's really inconsistent and you pretty much have to wait for confirmation before you move on to the next task.

                                   

                                  I think one reason SMGs get so much unwarranted hate is because they can be a 3 hit kill up close but take 5 steps back and it's a 5 hit kill. That kind of inconsistency generates complaints about SMGs being weak. People don't understand how range works and how much of an impact it has on weapon performance. They look at the max damage and assume that it's the only factor in how strong a gun is. They don't think about how SMGs can drop off so dramatically because of range, in fact I don't think a lot of people even know what range is.

                                    • Re: Serious question...SC2010 vs MP7?
                                      oRLsx317o

                                      Yeah me too. I like something that's gonna perform whatever the weather, so to speak, which is why I ended up becoming drawn to the SC, much like with the MP7.

                                       

                                      I totally agree; that's why I don't pick up an ARX-160 just because it has a high max damage (okay, that's not the only reason ), or the Vector just because it starts off with 45 damage. If it affects range positively or noticeably then fair enough, but why wouldn't you just go with the MTAR and its consistent 3-4 hit kills?

                                       

                                      It works the other way around though. People call SMGs OP (MTAR isn't, Bizon PP wasn't, Vector isn't, Ripper certainly isn't, rest are underpowered) yet they fail to take into account their disadvantages just because they were killed once or twice by the same person in the same kind of situation. There's a reason Ghosts is an AR (or M27 ) dominated game.

                                       

                                      Admittedly I had no clue about range or viewkick or whatever else for a while, but I'm a numbers guy to be honest and eventually I got into doing my own research and making decisions based on those numbers. I'll take an R5 on to Prison Break or Whiteout without a suppressor because I need all of that 44m 3hk range...otherwise I'll take a suppressed FAD instead because it has a virtually non-existant 3hk range anyway, and is much stronger at range.

                                       

                                      Another example to compare with my SC vs MP7 confusion though - Vector vs UMP45. The Vector has far better range and recoil, yet I rarely perform with it, and I used to destroy with the UMP (no rapid fire on either, always kick/grip). It's not like I'm using the Vector on the game's generally bigger maps either; I'll stick to it on Strikezone or Tremor! Whereas UMP + Dome or Mission = destruction